Patton was the greatest military leader in the history of the United States of America. If he had been allowed to do whatever he wanted in WWII, we would have taken Berlin days before the Soviets, and would have been able to dispense with the whole Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain thing. I know that all will agree with me.

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but they say "War is Hell." for a very good reason. And he understood that.

Absolutely right. More proof that Patton was the General ever.

ok....

General George S. Patton had a great rule to live by when it came to times of war, like the one we are in right now.

He said, "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You win it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country!"

Now, that's a general. *laughs* Ok, so he was a little harsh, but they say "War is Hell." for a very good reason. And he understood that.

exactly what I was trying to say

As much as i admire George S. Patton, who was a god-fearing man (to dispense with all the religious rhetoric), i don't think his capture of Berlin would have prevented the "Iron Curtain". The Soviets captured all of Eastern Europe. If the border didn't stop at Berlin it would have stopped at Poland.

You may be right about the whole thing, but we never will know for sure.

i don't like bush

hi

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a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Dissent fuels variety of opinion, variety fuels speculation, speculation fuels experimentation, experimentation creates change, change creates advancement. Advancement is good

Can i make a point?

it is true that Christians have to accept the whole Bible, but it also true that God sent the isrealites to war. And, since God can not sin, sending them to war, was not a sin, therefore, war could not be a sin.

God, also killed almost all all of humanity in a giant flood, killed all the first borns in egypt, so therefore, killing is not a sin.

Now you can argue that God is just, and that since we are sinful creatures open to his judgment and wrath he has the right to judge us.

But that doesn't change the fact that God did not condemn war and instead told many to go to war in the Bible. So is war wrong? i think with the wrong motives anything can be wrong.

Just some thoughts on the matter.

Sorry it took me so long to reply, but I have a life outside of arguing over the internet with people I do not know and are hell-bent on telling me my opinion is wrong with little or no backing arguments. I have friends, a job, school and family obligations that come before my leisure time which I am spending here.

quote:

Originally posted by Bushsupporter:
Murder is wrong, killing is not. - The seven deadly sins are stupid and are not something that protestants (or most catholics beleive in). In fact, I don't even know where in the Bible those are listed.

So, there is dishonor in war, but not honor. That cannot be. If there is one, there has to be the other.

First off, give me one instance where killing is right...

Then, realize that your sect of Christianity is not valid to my example, but rather the fact that you are a Christian. Therefore you are bound by your belief that the bible is the infallible word of god. Consequently the 10 commandments and "7 deadly sins" which are mentioned in the bible prove your opinion is wrong if it conflicts with them, according to your own beliefs. Also, while not listed in the bible as "7 deadly sins" each of them is mentioned at some point and condemned.

"There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19, New International Version)

Also, take into consideration that it depends on the translation version of the bible whether it says "thou shalt not kill" (King James Version), "you shall not murder" (New American Standard Version) or "do not commit murder" (Today's English Version/Good News Translation). Jesus' teachings also state that you should love your enemy and forgive your enemy’s sins so that yours will be forgiven, and that judgment lies in the hands of God and all wrongdoers will meet their fates at his judgment.

“For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” (Matthew 6:14-15, New International Version)

Also, your argument that since there is dishonor in war there must be honor is based on the package-deal logical fallacy, so I won't even bother with it.

And, FreeMarketLover:
The personal attacks are unnecessary, plus, it can be inferred by reading my argument carefully that I consider it a societal flaw that fame or glory can be "earned" through killing people.

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there is no honor in war

Etymology or honor: c.1200, "glory, renown, fame earned," from Anglo-Fr. honour, from O.Fr. honor, from L. honorem (nom. honos)

So you don't believe that to be renown, have glory or to attain fame are "in war?"

Maybe it's that the people who say things like you never have honor in war.

"Thou shalt not murder" is not the same as "thou shalt not kill". Murder is wrong, killing is not. There are plenty of accounts in the Bible where God helped the Isrealites in war. It does not "basically state" that war is a sin. The seven deadly sins are stupid and are not something that protestants (or most catholics beleive in). In fact, I don't even know where in the Bible those are listed.

So, there is dishonor in war, but not honor. That cannot be. If there is one, there has to be the other.

Well, well, such biting and personal attacks for my comments here, in speaking of honor I must consider personal attacks and not logical rebuttals of my point very honorable. What should I have expected? I am not afraid of you though, and will exercise my right to have a different opinion and speak it.

First off, I will restate my point; there is no honor in war. Now, kindly lend me your time so you may read and comprehend my arguement in support of my point.

As Christians, I'm sure you, marine16 and bushsupporter who rebuke my opinion understand this as it is laid out in your bible's ten commandments. The commandments "Thou shalt not murder", "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's house” logically can be linked to the fact that acts of war are wrong. Examples are killing for personal gain, stealing what is not yours and in this coveting the land and possessions of others. Those commandments basically state that acts or war themselves are sins. Acts of war also fall under the 7 deadly sins such as Greed, Wrath, Envy and Pride and in some cases Lust. Surely you must consider war a cardinal sin because of this. In this I also must state that Pattons act upon a soldier suffering from psychological problems which he had no control over falls under the category of wrath and pride, Patton himself was a Christian as well.

Also

You must remember, that the only reason there was a revolutionary war was because the British did the wrong and dishonorable thing by unfairly taxing and trying to control the people of the American colonies, and started war in an attempt to hold their control. Herein, the dishonor lies on those who started the war. Defending oneself is not an act of war and is not considered dishonorable in my mind. Similar is the case with Nazi power in WWII, Nazi Germany started the war for financial and territorial gain as well as to suppress a people; the Jews, their defense is a response to an act of war, I don't consider this an act of war in itself. However, in its most basic sense killing whether for right or wrong is dishonorable, humans have the gift of speech and logic, it should be used to resolve conflicts instead of animalistic violence. Liberation of a people falls under this explanation, the real act of war is the suppression of a people and their defense act is liberation.

I suppose I should've elaborated more on my initial statement, in anticipation that it would be taken out of context by illogical assumptions and personal attacks.

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Oh I hope no one forgot that Marine16 has no credability... he is a renowned lier after all.

I am a lier. I hide in waiting, in the shadows, to ambush ignorance everytime it comes my way. Thanks for the compliment - i didn't think you had it in you.

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There is no honor in war

It is clwar that Lenstr would disagree with war at all costs. I guess there was no honor is pushing back the Japanese empire to their island. I guess there was no honor in defeating Nazis. I guess there was no honor in winning our independence. I guess there was no honor in pushing back the Mexican invasion of our country. I guess there was no honor in keeping the Union intact. I guess there was no honor in defeating communism. I guess there was no honor in liberating Kuwait. I guess there was no honor in ending the genocide in Kosovo. I guess there was no honor in liberating the people of Afghanistan from the Taliban. I guess there was no honor in attempting to feed the people of Somalia. I guess Lenstr has a warped vision of reality and is forced to reside in his fantasy world.

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There is no honor in war

Yes there is. Are you telling me that the men who died in our own revolutionary war did not die in honor, for a cause much greater than themselves. How about those who died in WWII freeing millions of Jews from the grasp of the Third Reich. That is a foolish thing to say.

Second, that soldier was being cowardly by staying in the hospital that was set up for wounded and dying soldiers. You know, the ones that were wounded and killed with honor. Patton did the right thing by slaping him with his glove and sending him back to the front. He should never have been forced to apologize for that.

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Originally posted by Bushsupporter:
That was an excellent thing that he did. That soldier was stinking up that place of honor.

I am now going to excersize my "god given right" to disagree... vehemently. There is no honor in war and psychological problems are not "stinking up" any place nor are they properly dealt with by hitting someone.

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Originally posted by marine16:
Bushsupporter and Notsojoey have hit the nail on the head and described the greatest generals of all time. Each time I think they cant get any better they come and do this. Keep up to good work guys.

Notsojoey, mediocore minds (ampmaster) will always try o bring down great minds (you, me, bushsupporter). So take it in stride.

Oh I hope no one forgot that Marine16 has no credability... he is a renowned lier after all.

Bushsupporter and Notsojoey have hit the nail on the head and described the greatest generals of all time. Each time I think they cant get any better they come and do this. Keep up to good work guys.

Notsojoey, mediocore minds (ampmaster) will always try o bring down great minds (you, me, bushsupporter). So take it in stride.