Originally posted by riskbreaker86: No please, tell me what i'm jealous of? i'd really like to know. you can't make a statement like that and not back it up.
The fact that the USA has and always will be looked to as the defender of freedom and of what is right in the world.
This is just kinda pointless though because you'll never accept that.
It is not just a view held by me but by people around the world that we are all very sorry for the state US citiizens are in, and that they don't really realise their situtation (not every citizen, i dont want to generalise).
I feel sorry that you cannot express even a little distaste at some aspects of the USA and its policy, your rulers are obviously good at brainwashing.
Having just seen the poll results, I am glad to see that America remains the land of tolerance and freedom. Lack of rights for people of a terrorist froup does seem a bit excessive. Calm down.
Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning, nor does a sudden shower last the entire day.
From some of the statements you just made I'm pretty confident that you're pretty much unmovable from your hateful views. So in keeping with the values of the USA I'm going to take the high ground here. I'm not going to compare you to terrorists or anything like that. Instead, I'd just like to say one thing. And that is that I love my country. I love the USA because I known that it stands for what is right and that it is a land of freedom and honor. I love my country, and nothing you or anybody else says can break that
It is views like this that make it so easy for the politcally minded to take power. Hitler played off the Jews, blaming them for all Germanys problems. Stalin played off the intellectuals. Don't reply on this. Just think.
Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning, nor does a sudden shower last the entire day.
you can love your country, but don't be a sheep and run around doing exactly what is told of you and thinking exactly what the greedy rulers who have come to rule the US want you to think. It is not just a view held by me but by people around the world that we are all very sorry for the state US citiizens are in, and that they don't really realise their situtation (not every citizen, i dont want to generalise).
I feel sorry that you cannot express even a little distaste at some aspects of the USA and its policy, your rulers are obviously good at brainwashing.
'it's better to have your ministers inside the tent pissing out than outside, pissing in'
Originally posted by riskbreaker86: Ok, where do your claims of America's morality lie? from a country with such high gun violence, drug use, teenage pregnancy and obesity...extreme exploitative capitalism, corruption, scandal and a long history of pursuing your own interests abroard with little regard for the people that get hurt.
Lets not forget Jefferson himself claimed the US would be the greatest empire the world would know, and an empire you are....how can you preach such high moral standards when you are clearly purportrating the same acts across the world as the former European empires, that you so like to claim you are above, since the brutal conquering of the indian lands, to the annexation of the Phillipines to the current war in Iraq.
if the shoe was on the other foot...it is people like you who would be beheading islamic hostages, setting off car bombs, it is a reaction from these poor people, not an action i endorse by any means, but an action that is easy to understand when nationalism burns in people like you with such fury.
From some of the statements you just made I'm pretty confident that you're pretty much unmovable from your hateful views. So in keeping with the values of the USA I'm going to take the high ground here. I'm not going to compare you to terrorists or anything like that. Instead, I'd just like to say one thing. And that is that I love my country. I love the USA because I known that it stands for what is right and that it is a land of freedom and honor. I love my country, and nothing you or anybody else says can break that.
Ok, where do your claims of America's morality lie? from a country with such high gun violence, drug use, teenage pregnancy and obesity...extreme exploitative capitalism, corruption, scandal and a long history of pursuing your own interests abroard with little regard for the people that get hurt.
Lets not forget Jefferson himself claimed the US would be the greatest empire the world would know, and an empire you are....how can you preach such high moral standards when you are clearly purportrating the same acts across the world as the former European empires, that you so like to claim you are above, since the brutal conquering of the indian lands, to the annexation of the Phillipines to the current war in Iraq.
if the shoe was on the other foot...it is people like you who would be beheading islamic hostages, setting off car bombs, it is a reaction from these poor people, not an action i endorse by any means, but an action that is easy to understand when nationalism burns in people like you with such fury.
'it's better to have your ministers inside the tent pissing out than outside, pissing in'
Originally posted by riskbreaker86: haha that's funny. Coming from the country with the worst morals in history.
America says it's liberal but its not, says it's democratic but it's not, says it intervenes for legitimate purposes, it doesn't, says the terrorists actions are unjustified, they're not.
every action has a reaction, why do you think there is so much anti-American sentiment?
Your hateful crap is absolutely wrong. America is the moral standard in the world, and throughout history this great nation has been the sole beacon of strength, courage, justice, and honor. Through the noble sacrifice made by millions of US soldiers and through the fortiude and determination of men like Abraham Lincoln, Ronald Reagan, and George W. Bush, the United States of America has and will forever stand as the greatest country in the world.
We are Americans, we are supposed to have the highest moral standards on earth. We are the world's standard.
haha that's funny. Coming from the country with the worst morals in history.
America says it's liberal but its not, says it's democratic but it's not, says it intervenes for legitimate purposes, it doesn't, says the terrorists actions are unjustified, they're not.
every action has a reaction, why do you think there is so much anti-American sentiment?
'it's better to have your ministers inside the tent pissing out than outside, pissing in'
They hide behind women and children, and we hide behind guided missles billion dollar airplanes, and nightvision..... We still manage to blow up those women and children, so now they cant hide behind them.
I dont think jesus would have wanted us killing people.
do you think we were torturing them just because we are sadistic ****s? I wouldnt even call that torture. What the terrorist do is torture, we are not really hurting the prisoners. We are humiliating them so that they will talk. Do you really think that if we treat our prisoners with respect that the terrorists will do the same? It wasnt even a scandal that happens all the time just some reporter managed to get enough money to bribe someone in the prison to release the photos. This entire thing was just blown up into a big deal so everyone could hop on the bash america band wagon. If it is going to save american lives then i say go for it as long as it dosnt kill them or seriously injure them (i mean physically not mentally).
and as far as iraq goes, they were funding terrorist orginizations so they provided finnancial backing for Bin Laden. And i dont doubt that sadaam opened a bottle of his finest wine when he saw those two buildings go down. If you fund terrorist orginizations knowingly then you are no better then a terrorist.
---wait, you realize that that exact statement can be used against the American soldiers who commited the Abu Ghraib attrocities to validate further horrible acts against other, innocent American soldiers?---
Although I dont think what they did was wrong, if they do get in trouble they should be tried as war criminals(which they are). And i doubt that the terrorists are going to care what we do, they will always attack us until we kill all of them.
---Pantera, we did strip them naked. And then we put bags on their heads and stacked them on top of each other. We did completely humiliate them. We stuck electrical nodes on their private parts. What isn't well known is that these were not all terrorists- these were common criminals. Can you imagine if we treated our common criminals that way? What makes them any different?----
Actually our prisoners are treated that way, everyone knows it no one cares because they are CRIMINALS. It is called breaking in a inmate. And there is a big difference between humiliating them and BURNING THEIR BODIES AND HANGING THEM FROM BRIDGES. About the fact that some of them were common criminals the fact is this: In war we make mistakes However i would rather have most of the terrorists treated that way and have a very small minority not be terrorists then treat all the terrorists with respect, and not get any information out of them. Which means that americans die. And i could care less about the "rights" a person has who is to cowardly to wear a uniform and has a standard practice of using human sheilds and blowing up car bombs on the side of the road despite the fact that their are IRAQIS walking around. These people are the scum of the earth.
--- Geneva convention applies to wars. It doesn't matter if the war is against terrorists or gnomes, its a war and there are human rights.--
If you read the Geneva Convention it states that
"f a civilian is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the States, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in favor of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State."
and considering these guys are not part of an army of any kind and are all terrorists wielding guns, and are bringing harm to iraq i would say that pretty much disqualifies them from being protected from the geneva conventions.
so i shouldnt be angry that our soldiers are dragged through the streets? I shouldnt be angry that Americans heads are being chopped off?
No, you should be angry. You should be furious. But the reason that the Abu Ghraib thing that I just spent an hour of my life on was such a big deal was because the world expects torture from terrorists, that is their nature. We are Americans, we are supposed to have the highest moral standards on earth. We are the world's standard. When we stoop to their level, we become just as bad as the terrorists ourselves.
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We are Fighting a war against people who attacked our civilians first, and who are killing iraqis and americans.
Wait- before I kill you- you can't seriously believe that Iraqis attacked the Twin Towers, can you? That was Osama Bin Laden. NOT IRAQ.
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These people have no honor or respect for human life and I dont think they should recieve any of the rights that a real army recieves.
Wait, you realize that that exact statement can be used against the American soldiers who commited the Abu Ghraib attrocities to validate further horrible acts against other, innocent American soldiers?
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They dont even qualify for the geneva convention because they dont wear uniforms or have a symbol to show they are soldiers.
One word: Vietnam.
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they dress up in civilian clothes and hide behind children. If you think these kind of sick people deserve ANY kind of rights you are the one who needs to change your views not me.
That is disgusting. However, it is not readon for torture. Nothing is.
"If there was hope, it must lie in the proles, because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, eighty-five percent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated," p.60, "1984," by George Orwell
Pantera, we did strip them naked. And then we put bags on their heads and stacked them on top of each other. We did completely humiliate them. We stuck electrical nodes on their private parts. What isn't well known is that these were not all terrorists- these were common criminals. Can you imagine if we treated our common criminals that way? What makes them any different?
quote:
Indeed, the single most iconic image to come out of the abuse scandal—that of a hooded man standing naked on a box, arms outspread, with wires dangling from his fingers, toes and penis—may do a lot to undercut the administration's case that this was the work of a few criminal MPs. That's because the practice shown in that photo is an arcane torture method known only to veterans of the interrogation trade. "Was that something that [an MP] dreamed up by herself? Think again," says Darius Rejali, an expert on the use of torture by democracies. "That's a standard torture. It's called 'the Vietnam.' But it's not common knowledge. Ordinary American soldiers did this, but someone taught them....Some of the images from Abu Ghraib, like those of naked prisoners terrified by attack dogs or humiliated before grinning female guards, actually portray "stress and duress" techniques officially approved at the highest levels of the government for use against terrorist suspects."
"When the most powerful country in the world thumbs its nose at the rule of law and human rights, it grants a licence to others to commit abuse with impunity," she said.
London-based Amnesty cited the pictures last year of abuse of detainees at Iraq's U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison, which it said were never adequately investigated, and the detention without trial of "enemy combatants" at the U.S. naval base in Cuba.
"The U.S. government has gone to great lengths to restrict the application of the Geneva Convention and to 're-define' torture," she(Secretary General Irene Khan of Amnesty International) said, citing the secret detention of suspects and the practice of handing some over to countries where torture was not outlawed.
About Lynndie England, the Pfc. who commited atrocities at Abu Ghraib:
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In one photograph, the 22-year-old reservist held a leash looped around the neck of a hooded, naked prisoner. Another showed her next to nude prisoners stacked in a pyramid, while a third depicted England pointing at a prisoner's genitals as a cigarette dangled from her lips.
source (By the way, if you go to that site, there is a link in the box on the right that has pictures of the abuse. Such fun stuff.)
quote:
According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon’s operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq. A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfeld’s long-standing desire to wrest control of America’s clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A. source
Now, I don't expect that you would have read all that, but even so, that's only one of my points.
You say the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to the War in Iraq. That notion is absolutely ridiculous. The War is just that, a war. The Geneva convention applies to wars. It doesn't matter if the war is against terrorists or gnomes, its a war and there are human rights. What is even more absurd is the idea that because these people are terrorists, they don't have rights. This is absolutely disgusting. The opposing party will always be terroristic. What is the definition of a terrorist? The uni-bomber was most certainly a terrorist, yet he had rights. Again, many of these prisoners being so abhorrably treated are no more than common criminals- theifs and such.
"If there was hope, it must lie in the proles, because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, eighty-five percent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated," p.60, "1984," by George Orwell
Originally posted by yogore: I hope you grow up and out of these thoughts. Their immatue and will never fix any situation if you act like that.
so i shouldnt be angry that our soldiers are dragged through the streets? I shouldnt be angry that Americans heads are being chopped off? I shouldnt be angry when its a "HUGE" scandal when Our soldiers do something miniscule compared to what alqueda has done to us? We are Fighting a war against people who attacked our civilians first, and who are killing iraqis and americans. These people have no honor or respect for human life and I dont think they should recieve any of the rights that a real army recieves. They dont even qualify for the geneva convention because they dont wear uniforms or have a symbol to show they are soldiers. they dress up in civilian clothes and hide behind children. If you think these kind of sick people deserve ANY kind of rights you are the one who needs to change your views not me.
Originally posted by panterayall: i think they deserved what they got in grab and arab. It is a lot less then what they did to ours, at least we are not stripping their soldiers naked dragging them through the streets and then hanging them from a bridge and burning them. We need to beat these sick *******s.
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