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Registered: June 06, 2004
Posts: 3373
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" When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" American democracy is founded on the belief that we have been "endowed by the creator with certain unalienable rights." Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were responsible for the most influential of our revolutionary literature. They stated that democracy is the best way to ensure that "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" would be upheld. If there were no higher power than man, man would be the most powerful being. Man could grant and take away our rights. If you believe there is a higher power, than man cannot grant and take away what is given by that higher power. Without a belief in God, we would not have been justified in our revolution. We would have had no unalienable rights to be violated by the British. If you don't believe that we have unalienable rights, than you don't believe in American democracy. If you don't believe in true American Democracy, you are not a patriot. Honorablecoalition.tripod.com Whereas;This message has hereby been proudly deemed racism and bigotry free by the Great and Honorable Coalition Against Racism. MMIV - Youthnoise's First Coalition.
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Registered: December 14, 2004
Posts: 5770
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I think that he is talking about America patriots.
They'll like us when we win - Toby Ziegler.
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Registered: January 22, 2005
Posts: 716
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There is a slight hole in this thread. It assumes that all people should be American. I can be both Athiests and partiotic; I am English.
Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning, nor does a sudden shower last the entire day.
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Registered: June 21, 2005
Posts: 202
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quote:
we do execute them for not following christian morals.
Do we even have the death penalty? Anywayz, Practicing christian morals doesn't mean you are a christian or are forced to follow the religion. All it means is that you're supposed to follow the law, obey. It's common sense..not practicing the religion of Christianity...
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Registered: June 06, 2004
Posts: 3373
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quote: The unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are also unrelated to a higher power.
Rights are granted. Not by men. If they were granted by men they could be taken away by men. Thomas Jefferson states that governments are intstituted among men to secure these rights. Granted by creator. Secured by men. Here is an encyclopedic history of rights(wikipedia): We speak, in history, of the "divine right of kings", which expressed the concept that certain powers and privileges could be decreed by God to be "right" and "proper" for a king. The process by which this concept of king's rights came to be transferred to the rights of the people is long and convoluted. It certainly has a lot to do with both religious and political influences upon the common people, preaching again and again from one platform or another to rally support for what is "right" and "proper" to be done. Since ancient times religion has reinforced peoples' instinctive belief that there are some things owed to a person by right. Examples are the rights of a husband, the rights of a wife, -of a son, -of a daughter, of the firstborn, etc. and the land usage rights believed generated by fact of occupation. With religion on one side and the state on the other telling the people what their "rightful" position was in the scheme of things, it was inevitable that common people would eventually come to demand their own rights. When the Jews came out of Egypt, they were escaping from a system where one man, the pharaoh, was "god"—or, in other words, had all the rights. After they got out of Egypt, the Jews adopted their own system of law based on written commandments to which even their kings were subject. Eventually, the Jewish people would produce a tiny sect—called Christianity—which followed the idea of a man called Jesus of Nazareth. This tiny sect grew rapidly, spreading to Greece and Rome, and incorporating Greek republican ideas together into Talmudic concepts. Over the centuries, it became the world's largest religion, and one of the foundations of what we call "Western culture". When the concept of divinity shifted from a human personification to an abstract god somewhere above us all, it put the power of absolute judgement of right and wrong above the political state. Honorablecoalition.tripod.com Whereas;This message has hereby been proudly deemed racism and bigotry free by the Great and Honorable Coalition Against Racism. MMIV - Youthnoise's First Coalition.
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Registered: February 27, 2003
Posts: 2217
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*sigh* Here we go again... I said: quote: Webster's New World College Dictionary defines patriot as "one who loves and loyally or zealously supports one's own country".
To which you responded: quote: Horsey: I think that if you support your country that you are ideologicaly supportive of it's ideals. Webster and I do not differ.
quote:
..."zealously supports one's own country"
America is an idea. That idea is what seperates us from other countries. If you do not support the idea of America, you simply don't support America.
That doesn't change the fact that religion is not part of the American idea and that freedom of religion is. On the other hand, Webster's definition says nothing about that one must support ALL the principles of a country in order to be a patriot. So even if America WAS founded on Christian beliefs atheists could still be patriots if they love and loyally support the country. Also, if you plan on continuing with this argument, I would like you to comment on what clpo had to say: quote: I ask you this: how is this true? To answer this, we must first investigate just what American democracy is that separates it from the plain garden variety. The democracy we hold so highly in America is actually called a democratic republic, combining the two ancient forms of government set up by the Greeks: deocracy and republic. A democracy is a form of government where the people rule. It stems from demos, meaning people, and cracy, meaning to rule. Rule by the people. That's where we get our elections and the like. A republic is where a popular ruler makes the decisions. So, a democratic republic is where a ruler chosen by the people makes decisions based on popular opinion. On paper, this is what America is. In reality...suffice it to say that our presidents have ignored the people a lot.
Basically, this form of government has nothing whatsoever to do with a higher power. You can have an atheistic democracy and/or republic. Not so for theocracies and the like, but that's getting off topic.
The unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are also unrelated to a higher power. It's in human nature to want to live and be free and happy. Do slaves like being held captive and beaten and worked until they die? No, they would rather be let loose of their bonds and lead a fulfilled and joyful life. No one wants to be unhappy. No one wants to be supressed. And most certainly, no one wants to lose their life (there are exceptions, usually religion related). So God can be safely left out of this as well.
Therefore, if so-called "American" democracy and unalienable rights can be had without the presence of God, an atheist can believe in them without believing God. It's the same with being nice and good. Those are qualities related to God-fearing people, yet an atheist can be nice as well. The higher powers that we have are just ways to explain things we don't understand and can't explain. This has been proven by looking at ancient religions. If a person died suddenly, it was explained away saying that the gods didn't like that person, when in reality, it was merely a heart attack, or cancer, of which those people had no knowledge of.
I do believe in God, yet I also believe that it is possible for someone who doesn't believe in God to be a patriot, or in FML's words, believe in American democracy.
"I know of no safe repository of the ultimate power of society but the people. And if we think them not enlightened enough, the remedy is not to take power from them, but to inform them by education." Thomas Jefferson
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Registered: June 06, 2004
Posts: 3373
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quote: "endowed by THEIR creator" so, athiests just may think that it means their parents
But a parent could choose to not endowe their offspring. The D.O.I. says "all men". quote: FML lost the argument
You don't have the ability to seperate your emotional reaction(which seems to you like an intellectual conclusion) from your rationalizations(few and far between). I know that you feel like a patriot so what I say must seem wrong. Throughout this entire discussion Nickjs argument has been the first poignant post I've seen against my thesis because it argued the logic rather than the conclusion. I must also say that few(to none) of the support for what they view as my point has been poignant. You don't win Horsey. You don't even come close. Honorablecoalition.tripod.com Whereas;This message has hereby been proudly deemed racism and bigotry free by the Great and Honorable Coalition Against Racism. MMIV - Youthnoise's First Coalition.
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Registered: June 23, 2004
Posts: 771
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Indeed...and also, it says "endowed by THEIR creator" so, athiests just may think that it means their parents... Their parents gave them life, so they gave them their rights...
"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure." -Clarence Darrow
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Registered: February 27, 2003
Posts: 2217
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Just let this die. FML lost the argument, atheists can be patriots. End of story.
"I know of no safe repository of the ultimate power of society but the people. And if we think them not enlightened enough, the remedy is not to take power from them, but to inform them by education." Thomas Jefferson
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Registered: June 06, 2004
Posts: 3373
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quote: who said atheists dont believe in rights?
thomas jefferson and many founding fathers were diests... not christians.
Athiests don't beleive in what Thomas Jefferson called "inaleinable rights endowed by the creator". I never said they had to be christian. Muslims, Jews, deists, Hindi's, Buddhists, worshippers of Ra: Anyone who beleives in a creator. Honorablecoalition.tripod.com Whereas;This message has hereby been proudly deemed racism and bigotry free by the Great and Honorable Coalition Against Racism. MMIV - Youthnoise's First Coalition.
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Registered: May 22, 2005
Posts: 114
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who said atheists dont believe in rights? thomas jefferson and many founding fathers were diests... not christians. honestly wtf
-Kim
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Registered: April 23, 2005
Posts: 457
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quote: WE do have religious freedom. Numerous religions believe in a god, not just in the Christian god...but in a higher being, a god of somesort, the president could say in jesus christ we trust or jesus christ bless you
Numerous religions aren't all of them. quote: You wont change that, and it shouldnt be changed.
Actually, I WOULD change that. But I'm not the president. I'm not even 18. So the proper way to have stated that would be: You CAN'T change that yet because you aren't 18. You don't know that this won't change. How do you know we won't have a president who changes that? YOU think it shouldn't change. It's not fair. quote: We can change and update just as we have and will always, but when it comes to the core values and ways that our government and Country started with will remain
You're contridicting yourself. You say we can't change but then you say we can change and update.
Don't see Star Wars, it sucks the intelligence out of you
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Registered: April 15, 2005
Posts: 224
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quote: seeing that we came here for relgious freedom originally.
WE do have religious freedom. Numerous religions believe in a god, not just in the Christian god...but in a higher being, a god of somesort, the president could say in jesus christ we trust or jesus christ bless you. But he doesnt...religion although seperated directly from our government, has and will always underliningly have a part in our government. We can change and update just as we have and will always, but when it comes to the core values and ways that our government and Country started with will remain. You wont change that, and it shouldnt be changed. Some things will always remain, and this is one that always will, and it should, you can change a million things about yourself but when it comes down to it, you cant change who you are or the foundation of what you have become. Think of it that way.
"Che cosa facciamo nella vita, echos nel eternity."
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Registered: April 23, 2005
Posts: 457
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quote: The church and state are seperated....OUR country was founded by men whom believed in GOD, our history is who we are and what weve become. Let's get rid of everything, how about "under god we trust." on our money as well! Then everyone will be happy!!!
And hey, 96-98% of American citizens believe in GOD
Yeah, people will be happy. The government can't say just because the majority believes one thing, we'll ignore the 2-4% It's not right. The Bill of Rights says we can believe what we want. So the country was founded by men who beleieved in letting people believe in God if they wanted to seeing that we came here for relgious freedom originally. It's 'IN God we trust' not UNDER. And men WHO believed in God. Not whom.
Don't see Star Wars, it sucks the intelligence out of you
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Registered: March 09, 2004
Posts: 2913
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quote: Originally posted by panterayall: quote: Originally posted by clpo13:
I do not believe in the Christian God, so then why am I forced to endure "under God" in the pledge of alleigiance, "God bless America" after every presidential speech, and Christian objects all over the place? I thought there wasn't supposed to be an official national religion. We have become exactly what we were trying to avoid by dissenting against the Brits in the late 1700s. Smart move.
actually we dont execute people for not being christian, you do not have to say the pledge, and who cares if you have to "endure" it. i have to endure rap music does that mean that i am fighting to get it banned? i just ignore it maybe you should learn to do that
we do execute them for not following christian morals.
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Registered: April 15, 2005
Posts: 224
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The church and state are seperated....OUR country was founded by men whom believed in GOD, our history is who we are and what weve become. Let's get rid of everything, how about "under god we trust." on our money as well! Then everyone will be happy!!! And hey, 96-98% of American citizens believe in GOD.
"Che cosa facciamo nella vita, echos nel eternity."
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Registered: February 27, 2003
Posts: 2217
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quote: i agree completely. whatever happened to separation of chruch and state?
Good question, unfortunately I think it's going the way of the T-Rex.
"I know of no safe repository of the ultimate power of society but the people. And if we think them not enlightened enough, the remedy is not to take power from them, but to inform them by education." Thomas Jefferson
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Registered: March 24, 2005
Posts: 194
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quote: Originally posted by clpo13: quote: have you ever been to D.C.? there is god all voer the place, there is god all over every monument.
Exactly the way it shouldn't be. This may be getting old to hear but the US is not a Christian nation. Is it called the United States of God? The Christian Confederacy? No! Of course it isn't! Because it's not a Christian country! If you want to have a government that's wholly Christian, move to the Vatican. I'm sure they'll be glad to have you.
i agree completely. whatever happened to separation of chruch and state?
undermine thier authority, reject thir moral standards, make anarchy & disorder your trademarks. cause chaos & disruption but don't let them take you ALIVE! -sid vicious
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Registered: February 27, 2003
Posts: 2217
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quote: Originally posted by FreeMarketLover: quote: have either of us said that we view the Ten Commandments as completely Christian? No.
If you don't view it as such than you need to learn how to prove a coherent point.
Ha ha ha, sorry FML but sometimes you're too much. When have I not been coherent, unless you count spelling "defense" wrong incoherent. Clpo said that the Ten Commandments are commonly viewed as Christian. And they are. Even you can't deny that 9 out of 10 (I haven't actually done this so maybe it wouldn't be quite that many, one can hope any way) random people you stop on a street would say that the Ten Commandments are Christian, not Jewish. However, he never said that he viewed them as completely Christian. You're completely twisting and over reacting to what he said.
"I know of no safe repository of the ultimate power of society but the people. And if we think them not enlightened enough, the remedy is not to take power from them, but to inform them by education." Thomas Jefferson
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Registered: June 06, 2004
Posts: 3373
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quote: have either of us said that we view the Ten Commandments as completely Christian? No.
If you don't view it as such than you need to learn how to prove a coherent point. Honorablecoalition.tripod.com Whereas;This message has hereby been proudly deemed racism and bigotry free by the Great and Honorable Coalition Against Racism. MMIV - Youthnoise's First Coalition.
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