Gay people have the same rights I do.
I don't have the right to marry a male.
A gay man doesn't have the right to marry a male.
I have the right to marry a female.
A gay man has the right to marry a female.
Sounds more than equal, it sounds identical.

Republicans aren't patriots because they think that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, which directly contradicts the

quote:

all men are created equal

part.

The end.

Bushism of the day:
"Because the — all which is on the table begins to address the big cost drivers. For example, how benefits are calculate, for example, is on the table; whether or not benefits rise based upon wage increases or price increases. There's a series of parts of the formula that are being considered. And when you couple that, those different cost drivers, affecting those — changing those with personal accounts, the idea is to get what has been promised more likely to be — or closer delivered to what has been promised. Does that make any sense to you? It's kind of muddled. Look, there's a series of things that cause the — like, for example, benefits are calculated based upon the increase of wages, as opposed to the increase of prices. Some have suggested that we calculate — the benefits will rise based upon inflation, as opposed to wage increases. There is a reform that would help solve the red if that were put into effect. In other words, how fast benefits grow, how fast the promised benefits grow, if those — if that growth is affected, it will help on the red." —George W. Bush, explaining his plan to save Social Security, Tampa, Fla., Feb. 4, 2005

This is all getting needlessly stupid. The point FML is trying to make, from my eyes, is that if you don't believe in God, you can't have unalienable rights, and therefore you can't believe in American democracy, which is just a euphemism for monarchy.

I ask you this: how is this true? To answer this, we must first investigate just what American democracy is that separates it from the plain garden variety. The democracy we hold so highly in America is actually called a democratic republic, combining the two ancient forms of government set up by the Greeks: deocracy and republic. A democracy is a form of government where the people rule. It stems from demos, meaning people, and cracy, meaning to rule. Rule by the people. That's where we get our elections and the like. A republic is where a popular ruler makes the decisions. So, a democratic republic is where a ruler chosen by the people makes decisions based on popular opinion. On paper, this is what America is. In reality...suffice it to say that our presidents have ignored the people a lot.

Basically, this form of government has nothing whatsoever to do with a higher power. You can have an atheistic democracy and/or republic. Not so for theocracies and the like, but that's getting off topic.

The unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are also unrelated to a higher power. It's in human nature to want to live and be free and happy. Do slaves like being held captive and beaten and worked until they die? No, they would rather be let loose of their bonds and lead a fulfilled and joyful life. No one wants to be unhappy. No one wants to be supressed. And most certainly, no one wants to lose their life (there are exceptions, usually religion related). So God can be safely left out of this as well.

Therefore, if so-called "American" democracy and unalienable rights can be had without the presence of God, an atheist can believe in them without believing God. It's the same with being nice and good. Those are qualities related to God-fearing people, yet an atheist can be nice as well. The higher powers that we have are just ways to explain things we don't understand and can't explain. This has been proven by looking at ancient religions. If a person died suddenly, it was explained away saying that the gods didn't like that person, when in reality, it was merely a heart attack, or cancer, of which those people had no knowledge of.

I do believe in God, yet I also believe that it is possible for someone who doesn't believe in God to be a patriot, or in FML's words, believe in American democracy.

I don't care what you say FML. I support American democracy and I'm an athiest. Plain and simple. I don't need some anal college student telling me I'm not "patriotic".

Even if you are correct, I don't need to support all parts of American democracy to support it in general. For instance, I didn't support Kerry's stand on gay marriage, yet I supported Kerry as a canidate.

Yes. American democracy is about hypocrisy and screwing people over. In that case, I'm sure many atheists do dislike American democracy.

Democracy is an ancient greek form of government. American Democracy is different.

Oh, and democracy has nothing to do with religion. Atheists are generally for democracy anyway.

quote:

You keep avoiding the fact that our founding fathers gave us the right to believe in whatever we want. So your definition of patriotic is believing that all of the ideals that our country was founded on are right?

Our founding fathers gave us the right to not be patriotic. Are you going to try and tell me that exercising the right to not be patriotic is patriotic?

Atheism is a belief system, but it varies from person to person. Some atheists just don't believe in god, while others also have moral systems that go along with it. In general (using the term general cause I can't speak for everyone) we explain our existance using science and tend to be liberal. I guess that there could be conservative atheists, but as nontheists tend to get beaten down by the right-wing, the right-wing doesn't have many. Also, not believing in god tends to lead to more support for equality, free speech, and human rights, as there isn't a higher power to go on about the importance of bigotry.

Anyway, it depends how you define religion. If religion is a way for people to explain the Whole General Mish Mash and develop moral guidelines, than atheism could be considered a religion. That may sound oxymoronic as atheism tends to involve science and many people consider science and religion incompatible, but it's all relative.

quote:

You guys keep taking acception to my conclusion, but you steer clear of the logic that brings us there.

You keep avoiding the fact that our founding fathers gave us the right to believe in whatever we want. So your definition of patriotic is believing that all of the ideals that our country was founded on are right?
.....I've got bruises on my head from banging it on the table....

You can love the country if you are atheist, you just can't believe in American democracy. Patriotism is an intellectual passion for America and American Democracy.
Simply loving America is nationalism. You can be atheist and nationalist. You guys keep taking acception to my conclusion, but you steer clear of the logic that brings us there.

quote:

if our country had been founded by atheists would you be saying that Christians and others who believe in God weren't patriots?

Yes, If the logic that formed the ideals of our nation had been founded on atheism than I would think that. A Russian Soviet Communist would have been unpatriotic to beleive in God. An American democrat would be unpatriotic to not. I didn't say you don't love our country. You just don't agree with the Ideals of American Democracy.

How DARE you accuse me of not being a patriot just because I choose to use the rights our FOUNDING FATHERS gave us!!!!! Tell me, if our country had been founded by atheists would you be saying that Christians and others who believe in God weren't patriots? No, you wouldn't. Just because my beliefs are different from your's doesn't make me a worse person than you.

quote:

I have never met an athiest who loved America. FML is right.

You both make me sick. Here's a news flash for ya, I AM AN ATHEIST WHO LOVES AMERICA!!!!!!

I think it's the lack of. But I'm sure some of these atheists would disagree with me.

just out of curiosity, is atheism actually a religion or is it technically the lack of religion...

I never said only christians were patriots. You just have to believe there is a higher power. Thomas Jefferson was deist and so was Thomas Paine.

quote:

Atheists can be patriots if they love and believe in their country.

How can an atheist beleive that we have been endowed by the creator with unaleinable rights? They can't.

quote:

And yet the founding fathers left us with the right to choose our OWN religion, including atheism.

Yes, they left us the right to not be patriotic.

quote:

People who use these rights to practice any and all religions are patriots,

Exercising your rights does not make you patriotic. KKK members beleive that christ doesn't love black people and they exercise their right to assemble. They are not patriots. Your logic is ill.

quote:

You don't need unalienable rights to be bestowed by a god.

If there is no higher power to maintain that they are valid rights, than any governmenmt can give and take away your rights. But no one can take away a right given by god. If there is no higher power to maintain them, they are alienable.

quote:

Jefferson and Paine may have claimed that these rights were from God, but that doesn't mean they were correct.

You can disagrre if you want. It's the foundation of American democracy that you disagree with.

quote:

What about polytheists in America? Were they not patriots because they believed in more than one God and the declaration said there was only one?

No, they simply have to beleive there is a higher power.

quote:

It is also inaccurate to say an atheist doesn't support the declaration of independence. They may disagree with one part, such as the god-thing, but support the purpose--declaring independence from England.

If there is no god than we didn't have the right to seperate ourselves from Britain. So if you disagree with that part of the declaration that the rest is moot.

quote:

well, since they owned slaves, I think I am going to stock up on menial laborers ASAP

It was wrong of them. They disgraced our constitution by holding slaves. The Allowment of slavery was not in the bill of rights, it was a later added amendment. The ideals of American democracy were good, but their application of those ideals was poor. We are not arguing an application but an ideal.

quote:

I have never met an athiest who loved America. FML is right.

Simply because you haven't met one doesn't make that opinion true. You're generalizing. And misspelling. I after E. Atheist. Not athiest.

I know many atheists who are definite patriots. Sure, they're not laying their life down for America, but I also know many God-fearing people who wouldn't sacrifice themselves for their country. It's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of principle. By your logic, a Christian can't hate America. Yet there are Christians who hate America. Similarly, there are atheists who love America, and atheists who don't.

quote:

Also, many biographers suggest Jefferson was an atheist as well. It is believed by some that he only pretended to be religious because it was acceptable for the time period.

They also suggest that Lincoln was gay, along with most other historical figures. It doesn't make it true. He wasn't an athiest, he wrote "endowed by our creator."

I have never met an athiest who loved America. FML is right.

Also, many biographers suggest Jefferson was an atheist as well. It is believed by some that he only pretended to be religious because it was acceptable for the time period.

This is complete nonsense. Patriotism isn't believing that your country is the best. That's nationalism. Atheists can be patriots if they love and believe in their country. It's that simple. The definition of a patriot, in fact, is a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests. Nothing about inalienable rights and God in there. The way I read it, you say that democracy is only possible due to a higher power than man, i.e. God. And you furthermore say that we would not have been justified in our revolution away from the British if we didn't believe in God. Why? Because "we would have had no inalienable rights to be violated". Yet earlier you say that without a higher power than man, man could grant and take away rights. The British were taking away the rights of the American colonists, therefore they were justified in breaking away because their rights were violated. You can't prove that God granted those rights any more than I can prove that He's there.

Not all atheists believe that humankind is the highest power. We don't have huge egos or something-some atheists believe that humans are insignificant beings that are no more powerful or important than other organisms. It's just that we have weapons and can kill stuff.

Paine was actually quite critical of religion. He wasn't an atheist himself, but I wouldn't call him evangelistic.

FML-
Learn to spell atheist. It's an E before I word.