I've been meaning to put up a topic about this since I heard about it. Sorta surprised no one brought it up before me, but there don't seem to be that many new topics around. Anyway...

Excerpts from an article found here:

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A majority in the Dutch parliament wants to prohibit wearing the burka in public. It remains to be seen, however, whether the traditional Islamic garment, that covers the entire body, will disappear from Dutch streets.
The minister calls the burka a symbol of the repression of women: “Women do not need to be ashamed of their appearance.” MP Geert Wilders agrees and thinks that, in these “uncertain times”, it is important that people can be identified in public places.

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The Christian Democrats do not want to wait for the integration minister’s inquiry. CDA MP Wim van der Camp: “We voted in support of the motion because we want to clearly tell the government that people’s faces should be visible in public, whether this concerns a burka, a crash helmet or a balaclava. Normal people do not walk around with covered faces.”
In the Netherlands, few women wear the burka and opponents of the ban ask why the Dutch parliament is making so much fuss over the issue. Lawyer Famile Arslan: “We are probably talking about less than 100 women in a population of 16 million. What I am concerned about is if it starts with the burka, where will it end?” Arslan fears “another regulation aimed against Muslims”.

Personally I think this is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard of. It makes absolutely no sense for a country to impose a dress code on its citizens, especially one that is only being started to prevent Muslim women from covering up. And yeah, it's definitely being brought on to control the Muslim population. I'm wondering what the Netherlands will do about Halloween this year - can we expect some banned costume parties? Children being forced to remove their monkey masks in the streets? Oh, and wedding veils are going to have to be made sheerer right, so that the wedding party isn't stopped in the street? I bet those Dutch women will really appreciate the new use for plastic wrap.

By prohibiting the niqab (Muslim face covering - no idea why they keep referring to it as a burka), they're basically putting a bunch of women on house arrest, saying you're forced to stay home unless you can conform to what our society sees as normal. We think prostitution is normal. Drug use is normal. But wearing extra clothes is unnacceptable? This is a country where pretty much everything is allowed as long as it is organized - what about organized religion? That's not included?

Whatever your opinion about the Netherlands is, you have to agree that when discrimination becomes legistlation, a country has pretty much failed in the human rights department.

... And I bet a lot more noise would be made if they tried to ban mini skirts. Sick sad world

The niqab is not actually a scriptual necessity (it is non-Koranic); women who wear are actually seeking to hold onto a tradition, a way of life. It is a symbol of thier acceptance of a tradition, rather than a symbol of oppression.

To add to this point; the ideaology behind the niqab is very interesting. The idea is that by hiding your face, you are free to reveal the true 'you' and your personality. You are no longer judged on appearnce, but on you. Perhaps the West could learn something from this approach. This also renders the Dutch MPs comment about women being ashamed of thier appearence accusitory and genuinely wrong.

First of all it's not called burka though.
By the way i agree because it's not fair on women if they wear the veil as if they're crimials but they're just innocent people like us. Wearing veils or masks doesn't make us all crimials, only true crimial would know what they've done like killing people.
But wearing a veil doesn't kill people, its part of religion if they feel they want to be more closer to their religion, that's fine.
how come other religion can wear whatever they want and muslims can't? it's good to know that people are still fighting about what's important and what's not important.

Religions are important as they have influence on us, it's our choice if we want to choose to wear veil because of religion, not because we're crimials.

not everyone can be crimicals.

That's outrageous. It's NOT women opression. There are Muslim women who don't even wear head scarves. It's a choice. A personal choice on the part of the women. I think the Dutch Parliament should shut-up and go away.

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If I was a religious extremist and I heard a country was going to make practicing my religion illegal,

Who said the Dutch are making the Islamic religion illegal? All they are doing is banning people from taking the head covering thing to the extreme.

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Originally posted by Nephilem:
Religion is not a get free card that one can use to excuse any behavior they want.

But they're not doing anything wrong! They're not harming anyone, they're not behaving badly, they're not forming gangs and running wild, they're just dressed differently.

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To go back to the Ski mask, maybe I am just wearing it because I am supposed to do so for my Religion, but the police will still assume that I have it on for bad purposes.

Well that would make the police wrong, wouldn't it? I don't see the point in arguing about a hypothetical situation but if there was a religion like that then it would be wrong to make practicing the religion illegal. But there isn't. There is a religion called Islam that people follow in the Netherlands, and they should have the right to follow it.

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Lastly there are other options to the Burka that don’t completely cover their face, if they feel religiously convicted to wear a head covering, they can wear that.

If they feel convinced to cover their faces then they should be able to do that as well.

This law is just a flat out insult to Muslims, that's all there is to it. How much crime is really committed in the Netherlands by women in burkas? I don't have any statistics on me but I would guess little to none, since it's such a small faction of the population. And if terrorism is what they're worried about, I've never heard of any terrorist attacks there - is this some sort of preemptive strike, cause I gotta tell you that is the stupidest plan ever. If I was a religious extremist and I heard a country was going to make practicing my religion illegal, I would be on the first plane out. So much for "security reasons".

While nations do have diversity there is also an idea called unity, which is also important, if country forgets unity for the sake of Diversity, I can assure you they will be a weaker country.
Religion is not a get free card that one can use to excuse any behavior they want.
To go back to the Ski mask, maybe I am just wearing it because I am supposed to do so for my Religion, but the police will still assume that I have it on for bad purposes. While the situation with the Burka is different there are comparisons. Let’s say the woman is going to get a drivers license is she going to take it of then? How about if she goes to court? Where do you draw the line?
Lastly there are other options to the Burka that don’t completely cover their face, if they feel religiously convicted to wear a head covering, they can wear that.

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The point that it is there cultural dress should not apply because these people have moved to a new country and when people do that, they are expected, to some degree, to adapt to the culture of their new home.

Well, not really. No matter where you live you are still you, with the same culture and the same set of morals. You're culture is not supposed to just disappear if you happen to move, you're supposed to bring something new to the country. Besides, wearing a burka (and/or niqab) is a religious choice. You're assuming that all women wearing Islamic dress are immigrants (which most probably are) but what about converts? The only women I've ever personally known who wore burkas and covered their faces were American converts - it's not just a foreigner thing.

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1.The effect of widening the culture barrier.
2.Violating common procedures, i.e. People like to know what their customer looks like.
3.Security issues.

The barrier between different cultures will always be wide if people treat differences as huge problems. The propper response isn't to make it illegal to be different, it's communication. And I'm sorry, knowing what the customer looks like wasn't important last night when you sold some of your old crap on ebay.

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we are on no such path.

Well France has already banned the Burka at certain schools, and Members of the British parliament are discussing banning the Burka in public. So it seems that they are farther down the path then you think.

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the governments of Britain and France have also started down this path

we are on no such path.

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I see banning burkas in a similer light as banning kilts. It's my cultural dress

The point that it is there cultural dress should not apply because these people have moved to a new country and when people do that, they are expected, to some degree, to adapt to the culture of their new home.

The Dutch government fell that the Burka causes many problems which include:
1. The effect of widening the culture barrier.
2. Violating common procedures, i.e. People like to know what their customer looks like.
3. Security issues.

And it is not Just the Dutch government that feels this way, the governments of Britain and France have also started down this path. The countries in Europe are realizing that to keep Europe’s culture alive, they will have to assimilate the immigrants who take up residence in there country.

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others.
But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god.
It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

listen to Mr. Jefferson the only govts that can set standards like that for citizens tend to be the vilest of despotism (see Nazi Germany)

I see banning burkas in a similer light as banning kilts. It's my cultural dress so fuck off

number next the origin of the burka and nijab as I understand it were more for convience in an area with craploads of two things heat and sand. The burka, nijab and traditional arabic male garb do an excellent job of combating these elements and as with many things like that were woven in to religion. Similer to the Kilt and it's use in navigating the highlands of scotland and the marshes of ireland and how it was wove in to the pre-christian (and christian) faith there

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I am glad that you agree that it is wrong to force people to wear a certain type of clothing.

who's she agreeing with? certaintly not you. As you are forcing women to wear a certain style of clothing... western clothing instead of the clothes they choose to wear.

First of all I am glad that you agree that it is wrong to force people to wear a certain type of clothing.
However at the same time I do think that it is reasonable to allow a country to set certain standards for what there citizens will do. Claming that I am acting in accordance with my religion is not a free ticket to do what ever I want.

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Make up your mind what are we talking about banning the Burka, or the niqab.

Honestly? I have no idea. All the quotes I can find about the subject use the word 'burka' but then they talk about covering the face. So I don't really know which they plan to ban.

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I know people who went to the Saudi Arabia, and while they were there they had to wear a Burka otherwise they would be expelled from the country.

Yes, that's true. I don't know why Saudi Arabia follows such a strict interpetation of the religion, but they seem to consider the whole country a holy land and, like you wouldn't go into a church in your swimsuit, maybe that's why you can't go into SA in anything but a burka. Just FYI, I hate Saudi Arabia's laws. It is sexist to absolutely force an entire country's women population to dress one way, and that's what the Netherlands is trying to do (in reverse :/)

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Just living in a democratic country is not a free ticket to do what ever we want.

Yeah, but being a Muslim in a democratic society doesn't mean you're there to blow something up. And people who wear ski masks are doing it deliberately to cover up their faces so they can't be identified by the police, people wearing niqab are doing it because they believe that it's what God wants them to do - and as long as they aren't breaking any of laws, we should respect that. This new law is rediculous and unnecessary.

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They have absolutely no logical reason to ban the niqab.

Make up your mind what are we talking about banning the Burka, or the niqab.
First of all I did not say that people who wear a burka are inferior. And secondly Muslims do force people to wear a Burka. I know people who went to the Saudi Arabia, and while they were there they had to wear a Burka otherwise they would be expelled from the country. Also many Muslims want to emplace Shari law in the west, which would mandate the wearing of Muslim head coverings.
If I wanted to go walking threw the city nude, I would not be aloud to do so, so yes to an extent the government can tell you what to where. If I wanted to where a ski mask and go into a Jewry store I would not be aloud to do so. Just living in a democratic country is not a free ticket to do what ever we want.

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Originally posted by Nephilem:
If the Muslims had their way every woman on the planet would have to wear a Burka.

I don't see how wearing a burka is inferior to wearing anything else. Most negative feelings people have toward Muslims seem to be stemmed from a feeling that Muslims want to take over and change everything, but just because Muslim women want to dress one way doesn't mean they're going to force you to dress the same way. That's what this government is trying to do - tell you that you cannot be who you want to be and dress like you want to dress, you have to conform to their concepts of normal.

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Also the Muslim women can still were their Islamic scarves, they just cant where their full face covering.

Not all Muslim women think it is required to cover the face but if they want to, it should be their choice. I thought an advanced democratic society meant that women were allowed to wear whatever they wanted.

The whole concept that everyone in a burka is likely to be a terrorist is like saying that every woman in a miniskirt is likely to be prostitute. And no, there are so few women that wear the burka in the Netherlands that catching one on a security camera would probably be a decent clue to identifying them. They have absolutely no logical reason to ban the niqab.

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My example was not to say that all people who were a Burka are a terrorist, and I apologies if it came across that way.

Thank you.

My example was not to say that all people who were a Burka are a terrorist, and I apologies if it came across that way. My point was that people walking around with their head comply covered, and I don’t care what they covered their head with, is a dangerous thing. I could play the same scenario again but this time with a white male, with a mask. We still don’t know who he is. I’m also not trying to say that they need to disregard their religion. Many Islamic women wear a headscarf, so that they follow their religion but at the same time you can see their face. The Burka is the extreme side of the head covering, so it’s not necessary.

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I simply stated that the argument that I am just being stereotypical is flawed.

I was referring to this statement in particular:

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Take this scenario. A Moslem terrorist leaves a backpack bomb, in a daycare center, which explodes killing dozen of children. They catch the person on video but are unable to track down the killer because they are wearing a burka.

It is like assuming that all Muslims are terrorist and if allowed to wear the Burka, you can never trust them. If this is not what you mean to say, then please make it clear because that is what came out as to me.

I did not say that a Burka made you look like a criminal; I simply stated that the argument that I am just being stereotypical is flawed. If the Muslims had their way every woman on the planet would have to wear a Burka. Also the Muslim women can still were their Islamic scarves, they just cant where their full face covering.