http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html

Serious props to the lady who took him down, however there are some discrepencies between reality. For example the lady in question was not a church employee, she was a private citizen with a CCW (aka a Concealed Carry Permit). This illustrates nicely in my mind why the right to bear arms is so important.

Discussion of the 2nd Amendment Implications in relation to this incident: http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2007/12/shooting_at_new_1.php

Further more New Life is an extremely religous group and one of the new crops of "mega-churches" any one can agree that this was a senseless tragedy but something our lady defender said made me mildly unerved. She said something along the lines of "God helped me" which makes like zero sense given she was a cop for years and likely practices her marksmanship, renews her CCW and mentally prepares for this sort of thing, from a practical stand point, it was training not God. From a more moral stand point if your saying that God helped you kill another human being isn't that tantamount to saying that God approved you of killing that person? I'm not saying he didn't deserve it, but saying God gave his okay makes me think of groups of middle eastern men pumping their fists and screaming "Allahu Ackbar!" because that is exactly what muslim fundamentalists think. That God helps them kill enemies of their faith. I think this church shooter would qualify as an enemy of the christian church. I doubt she meant that comment in that way but that's what it came off as to lots of people around here.
Thoughts? Comments? Condolences?
(as a note I live maybe 5-6 minutes from this church)

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Home defense shotty?

The average burglar will balk at a metal baseball bat, much less a projectile weapon. If you're so worried about being robbed that you think you need a shotgun, you probably already have armed guards and a high-tech security system complete with starving pit bulls.

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Ewwwwww.
Smith and Wesson makes me want to gargle. Point taken though.

I'd still trust a 92F. 13+1 for the compact models, 15+1 for the regular.

Glock does an excellent 40. too from what I hear.

As a further note, I dislike Beretta a lot. Like severly I think they don't stand up well under combat stress. I got this opinion from the various reviews of navy SEALs and other elite troops who have literally gotten shrapnel from Beretta 92s exploding, this has lead to a line a marching cadence "you think you a navy seal? not till you eat some italian steel?"

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I can just see it now.

Robber: "EVERYONE ON THE GROU... What the..."
Marine: "Hey. Look. It's our friend MR. SAW and his cousin, MR. M2 12.7 MM"
Robber: "Oh shit..."

after action:
Cop: so you whipped out your SAW and...
Marine: Obliterated him yeah
Cop: Obliterated him....
Cop: Right that might be a problem...

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Originally posted by ampmaster:
Allow me to introduce my associates Smith and Wesson, They make excellent tactical hand guns in a wide vareity of hand gun calibers. I've shot one of their 40.s and it had a nice capacity (10 + 1 in the chamber) extremely low recoil (compared directly to the Berrata 92F)

Ewwwwww.
Smith and Wesson makes me want to gargle. Point taken though.

I'd still trust a 92F. 13+1 for the compact models, 15+1 for the regular.

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Originally posted by ampmaster:
Lol concealed carry SAW any one?

I can just see it now.

Robber: "EVERYONE ON THE GROU... What the..."
Marine: "Hey. Look. It's our friend MR. SAW and his cousin, MR. M2 12.7 MM"
Robber: "Oh shit..."

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What handgun comes chambered in a good amount of .40?

Allow me to introduce my associates Smith and Wesson, They make excellent tactical hand guns in a wide vareity of hand gun calibers. I've shot one of their 40.s and it had a nice capacity (10 + 1 in the chamber) extremely low recoil (compared directly to the Berrata 92F)

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How does a private citizen get hold of body armor and a helmet? Aren't those things generally restricted?

Same way he got an AK with out a special permit

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Then again, concealed carry doesn't mean much when "concealed" can mean a big freaking backpack.

Lol concealed carry SAW any one?

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Personally, I don't see why anyone would need more than a pistol unless they're planning on hunting

Home defense shotty?

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Originally posted by clpo13:
How does a private citizen get hold of body armor and a helmet? Aren't those things generally restricted? And what use would the average person have for them anyways?

Eh. Not really.
Some places will restrict sale to civillians. However, it's not that hard to find on the internet. Heck, they even have stuff for babies.

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From a more moral stand point if your saying that God helped you kill another human being isn't that tantamount to saying that God approved you of killing that person?

It depends how you look at it. If you believe in God and believe that His power is absolute, then you have to recognize that nothing in this world can happen without his approval. We can do nothing without him allowing us to, and if God wants to prevent something from happening, then it won't happen. Some people can look at this as an excuse to do whatever they want and claim that God is ok with it (because if He wasn't then how could it happen?), but I don't think that that's equivalent to saying God helped you bring down a gunmen. He was shooting up a church, it makes sense for a religious person to expect God to intervene.

How does a private citizen get hold of body armor and a helmet? Aren't those things generally restricted? And what use would the average person have for them anyways?

Incidents like this show how confusing the right to bear arms can be. On the one hand, you have an armed and dangerous man taken down by a private citizen with a legally-owned and operated weapon. On the other hand, though, you've got a guy who got his hands on an assault rifle, body armor, and a lot of ammunition.

Personally, I don't see why anyone would need more than a pistol unless they're planning on hunting, and even then, they shouldn't need more than a rifle or shotgun. No person outside the police or military really needs an assault rifle, or even an SMG. Most criminals don't burgle houses wearing Kevlar and deer tastes funny if it has 20 rounds of bullets in it.

I have no comment on the God helping her bit, though. I'm a firm believer that human accomplishments should be attributed to humans, but people are free to believe what they like.

Ah. I misread that, and thought you were giving a hypothetical "Imagine how much weight". I still think an accurate shot will do a lot, so I don't give credibility to her "thankya Jesus" either.

Anway, stopping power doesn't mean much to me. A .45 to the cranium will do just as much damage as a 9mm.

You want effective stopping power? Multiple shots.

The Desert Eagle, in .50 AE carries the same as a Colt M1911 in .45, seven rounds, and 9 rounds in .357.

What handgun comes chambered in a good amount of .40? The really good CCW weapons I know, are all .32 and 9mm. (Kel-tec, anyone?)

Then again, concealed carry doesn't mean much when "concealed" can mean a big freaking backpack.

In which case P90TR for the win.

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If his head wasn't covered,

It was, he had body armor and a kevlar helmet

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And yes, I know people have complained about the Beretta 92F. It still works.

for true stopping power? nooo thanks, as the famous Marine Corps rule goes, "never go to a gun fight with a pistol that's caliber doesn't start with a "4". 9mm rounds have a history of requiring several shots to put a bad guy in the dirt. Sure they kill fine but I want the guy on the ground from the impact.

But on the other end of it a hand cannon is just impractical and too heavy to tote around. It's also hard to get a good amount of rounds in to the clip (something like 5 for a D.eagle?)which is why I'm a big fan of the 40. stopping power of a bigger round, but small enough and light enough to fit a good number in to the clip and you can carry a bunch of them.

It doesn't matter if he had an assault rifle or not. If his head wasn't covered, a .22LR like something fired from Walther PP would have taken him down.

I mean, the Spetznatz use 9mm rounds. So does the U.S. Army.

You don't need big calibers to take people down.

And yes, I know people have complained about the Beretta 92F. It still works.

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I wonder why the guy did it, though.

It's postulated by local new sources that he was viruently anti-christian, given that both attacks made were on christian areas (a mission center and aforementioned church respectively) this would seem to substantiate that possability.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html

Here's the CNN article complete with Ms. Assam's "God" qoute

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Police said Monday he had an assault rifle and two handguns, and may have had as many as 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

This seems odd to me, add in about 20 pounds of body armor and a 6-8 pound kevlar helmet and that all adds up to close to 100 pounds of gear... that's insane for any one to carry. If the guy really did have an Assualt Rifle (he did, AK clone) Ms. Assam may really have had god on her side, going up against an assualt rifle with a handgun is not good for your longevity.

Hey! She even comments on that!

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"I give the credit to God. And I say that very humbly. God was with me and the whole time I was behind cover -- this has got to be God, because of the firepower that [the gunman] had vs. what I had," Assam said.

It's really not so holy though, consider that the guy was not expecting armed resistance. He was expecting a flock of sheep to pick off, add in that he wasn't professionally trained (most likely) and this a guy who's concentrating on engaging targets, not watching his 6 or his flanks. Simply put Ms. Assam used her training with out thinking about it, got cover flanked this guy and took him down (note that she was not actually a security guard or a cop, so when she says "I came out of cover and identified myself," she means she yelled "I have a gun" which is the prefiring warning required of CCW holders in most states.

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The article did speculate that she saved lives

She definetly did, working logically the hundred lives" that the pastor credits her with saving was actually rather low, a guy with an assualt rifle and a deuce of pistols in a crowded panic enviroment? hell the trample deaths from people trying to escape would likely be around 100 (7000 people in the building and I've been through new life's doors, big but not enough to handle that type of exodus)

If she was trained to do that, then she probably shouldn't have said God helped her. However, we really don't know if God really did help her or not. The article did speculate that she saved lives.

I wonder why the guy did it, though.