Ipperwash, what you typed makes no sense at all, you still have a lot of learning and growing up to do obviously. Give me an example of how the church does not practice "equality in all areas" If you think the Catholic Church "brainwashes" people, then that shows me just how little you really do know. Can someone please give me some facts at least, not just a bunch of opinions which dont get me wrong everyone is entitled to them, im just saying, the least you can do is have your opinions make sense.

I am personally looking for someone who is more open to change, and less traditionalist, although i'm sure this probably won't happen.
SanAntonioGuy, i definitely think you are a little to self rightous for my liking. I'd have to say that i am part of the liberal progressive catholic group, that you say doesn't exist. I am not an Orthodox Catholic, and i never will be, but that does not mean that I still don't hold the majority of my beliefs in that faith. I am a product of my surroundings. I believe in equality, in all areas, something that the catholic church seems to be against, but again that doesn't mean i'm not Catholic. Just because i wasn't totally brainwashed into believing in every little thing the catholic faith entails, does not make you a better or more knowledgable Catholic then myself or katalinacmnacha 89

So, for all the Catholics out there (I'm not one, I'm just curious), what are you all looking for in a new pope (Pope)?

"I do not expect the church to start advertising at strip joints or handing out free Starbucks coffee with every donation. I would like to see, however, the Roman Catholics to reach out of the self-righteous bubble and start accepting that this isn't biblical times."

Your very right, this isnt biblical times, this is an era of death. What you are hoping to see will never happen, and I am very happy knowing it wont. You are right about one thing, "I am what I consider to be a liberal, progressive Catholic" you are the only one who is in this category because it does not exist. You are either Catholic, or you are not in this world. Other religions in place today who had the same ideas you do are simply the Catholic Church "trimmed and styled" to someone elses liking, and guess what, that someone is not God. I did not tell you what your religion was, I was bringing up a point that you have a Catholic foundation but your second floor is built by you.
"Today the church seems to focus so much on the bad sides of people, with their stances on abortion, homosexuality, and such. The message has drifted away from acceptance to disdain and outcasting those who aren't fit." This is because the Church actually wants people to go to heaven and though God is EXTREMELY merciful, we dont necessarily have a free ticket in, so its up to our religion to tell us whats right and whats wrong, you make it sound like the Church just wants to be picky about things and has nothing better to do but point out sins. If our own faith doesnt remind us, who will? You sure wont, you dont think its a big deal! If your my friend and im having an abortion and you tell me its ok, God is good, thats not going to get me into heaven!! Think OUTSIDE the box a little will you, please follow ALL the rules of the Church and try not to make it sound like it needs changes, trust me I've already been down that road and thats when evil sneaks in!

John Paul II...pray for us, we need it!!!!

quote:

katalinacmnacha89, are you sure your Catholic? I guess maybe you were baptised Catholic but now you are venturing off into a religion that gives into todays society. "I think he didn't do enough to modernize the church" Oh you mean you didnt know that the Vatican had a website, right? As a fellow Catholic, you should know the Church is NOT going to change just because society changes. Can you imagine where we would be right now if we did that??!! We might as well just write a new bible if we are going to do that."many people outside Christianity see him as a burden, another expectation to live up to." Who, the Pope or God???

For that last bit, God. I apologize for not capitalizing His name. I do not expect the church to start advertising at strip joints or handing out free Starbucks coffee with every donation. I would like to see, however, the Roman Catholics to reach out of the self-righteous bubble and start accepting that this isn't biblical times. I most certainly am a Catholic, though, and I don't think it is your place to tell me what my religion is. I am what I consider to be a liberal, progressive Catholic. That is what the Bible is all about. Acceptance. That is the direct definition of liberalism. Jesus brought in all kinds of people and forgave them. Prostitutes, thiefs, murderers. Today the church seems to focus so much on the bad sides of people, with their stances on abortion, homosexuality, and such. The message has drifted away from acceptance to disdain and outcasting those who aren't fit.

Bushism of the day:
"The law I sign today directs new funds and new focus to the task of collecting vital intelligence on terrorist threats and on weapons of mass production." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Nov. 27, 2002

Yeah, I think regardless of what religion you follow, Pope John Paul II really was a good leader. I agree with his ideas about being a "culture of life," and it's cool that he used to be an actor, like yours truly, and that he supported the arts.

BTW for all the Dalai Lama followers:

http://news.newkerala.com/india-news/?action=fullnews&id=94512

xVOICEx, like the pope himself did, I will try and focus more on our similarities rather than our differences. Even though as you said, the Orthodox Church is on the other side of the road, you may be suprised to see what is on the main page of an Orthodox Christian website...

www.antiochian.org.

As a fellow Christian I do appreciate your kind words "But, otherwise, I do hope he's moved on to a better place"

As with the leaders of your church, I hope you may too have an open mind and heart towards Catholics and any other religions in this world and their leaders.


Euterpe, trust me if anyone tries to step outside of the Catholic faith and view it as others do, its me. If I was not like this I definitely would not have admitted that the Church in the US has many problems left to fix. But remember, Catholics (and really I should say Christians) are not perfect as people make us out to be or at least expected to be, we are simply forgiven. God knew this, this is why he left us the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) so that we always at the least have the opportunity to ask forgiveness and get our souls back to perfect graces with our Lord. Now are we forced to go to confession? Of course not! In fact many dont, its our personal decision and God never forces us to do anything. But we can never say that He at least didnt give us the opportunity.

Now on to a few of your comments. As I said in my earlier post, I really wish you would do a little research, I mean just a tiny bit at least before you make a comment.
"HIS belief on gays, which reflect the belief of the Church, cause a ripple effect on the world that makes anyone, regardless of social, financial, economical, or locational bakground, as long as they're Catholic, believe the way he does because of the authority he has."
First of all, the Pope's authority is not that of other leaders you may have heard about in history. He doesn't say: "Gays shouldnt get married just because I dont want them to because I personaly dont like em!" All the Holy Father did was carry on the Word of God. God set up marriage for man and women, He said nothing about man and man or woman and woman. Does this mean He didnt know there were homosexuals in the world? Of course not, He loves us all the same, but homosexual marriage was not in his plan and the Pope just simply passes this message on without worrying what people think. Why should he change it, its what God wants!!
"As for pre-marital sex, well, obviously that was a failure." Who's failure is this? Gods? The Catholic Church? Christians? No its the individuals who have pre-marital sex. The rules are stated clearly, if the rules are broken, its the individuals failure, no one elses.
"Maybe if he had championed more sexual education in third-world countries, there'd be less spread of disease and less pre-marital sex." I guess the Holy Fathers messages of NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE were only preached in the US and in Rome, all the third-world countries were either skipped or just skimmed. Please, THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE!! Since you seem to believe that all the married couples having sex in AIDS infested countries are the ones spreading all the diseases, im sure the ones who dont listen to the Church's beliefs on pre-marital sex are the ones that are keeping the AIDS levels down. At least thats how you make it sound.
"And really, what peace DID the Pope bring? He brought peace within his delegation, within the people of his religion. He did not bring peace to anyone else in the world. Obviously not to the US, not to Iraq, not to civil-war-torn countries in Africa. The only people who do that are social reformers and powerful leaders. Actions speak FAR louder than words. He lent a helping hand, but over twenty years with such influence, he really could have done more."
ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!!!
Pope John Paul II helped to free Eastern Europe from communism—a historic achievement for the man and his Church. Now he has turned his moral scrutiny on capitalism. (The Atlantic Monthly | July 1994 ) Thats just one simple article I found entitled "What Would the World Be Like Without Him?" As I said b4, DO SOME RESEARCH!

clpo13, "they" do not go and change the Pope's names, the Pope's themselves are allowed to do it, IF THEY WANT. In the case of John Paul II, it all started with Pope Paul IV who died in August 1978. His successor Albino Cardinal Luciani was elected and took the name John Paul to honor Paul VI and John XXIII (the two Popes of Vatican II). But Pope John Paul I only lived a month, so on October 16, 1978, Karol Cardinal Wojtyla was elected bishop of Rome and took the name John Paul II.

CelticNewAger, NFP DOES work like I said when used correctly, HOWEVER, it also leaves room for God to do His work, If he wills another life in this world, so be it. In the case of your parents, be thankful they werent selfishly using the pill, you wouldnt be here otherwise and though I disagree with your comments, you were created for a reason and every life counts. There may be a child that calls you mommy one day (if not already I dont know u personaly) and im sure that child would argue your here for a reason. Thank your parents when you get a chance, if not now at least after you have kids.

katalinacmnacha89, are you sure your Catholic? I guess maybe you were baptised Catholic but now you are venturing off into a religion that gives into todays society. "I think he didn't do enough to modernize the church" Oh you mean you didnt know that the Vatican had a website, right? As a fellow Catholic, you should know the Church is NOT going to change just because society changes. Can you imagine where we would be right now if we did that??!! We might as well just write a new bible if we are going to do that."many people outside Christianity see him as a burden, another expectation to live up to." Who, the Pope or God???

Although I respect the Pope for many of the ideas of diversity he brought to Roman-Catholicism (I'm a Catholic myself), I think he didn't do enough to modernize the church. Many of the ideals that Christianity in general holds are out-of-date. If the Church wants more people to follow God, you have to make them understand God as He relates to their lives, not as some stuffy old fogey who will damn you enternally for the slightest "sin." People want comfort in their lives, and although many close followers find comfort in God, many people outside Christianity see him as a burden, another expectation to live up to.

Bushism of the day:
"The law I sign today directs new funds and new focus to the task of collecting vital intelligence on terrorist threats and on weapons of mass production." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Nov. 27, 2002

quote:

No he did not tell people with AIDS not to use condoms, he tells the ENTIRE WORLD not to use condoms

That's one hell of a brilliant idea *sarcasm*.

quote:

It is still 99.9% effective if done correctly, it doesnt require any third party items at all, and it requires alot of communication within the relationship to make it work, which last time I checked, Dr Phil said communication is key to marriage.

No it's not. Ask my parents if it works.

What society does not realize is that only Catholics are very affected by the Pope's words.

You know what I'd really like to know, if anyone can help, is why they go and change the pope's name once he becomes the pope. For instance, some guy could be named Antonio Velasquez de Rodriguez y Morales and if he is elected pope, he'll be forever known as Pope John Paul George Ringo XIV or something like that. Why?

SanAntonioGuy, you have to understand that within the Catholic world, yes JP2 was a great individual. But you, as educated about (presumably) your religion, must step outside of it and realize how he affected the lives of those who do not follow him.

HIS belief on gays, which reflect the belief of the Church, cause a ripple effect on the world that makes anyone, regardless of social, financial, economical, or locational bakground, as long as they're Catholic, believe the way he does because of the authority he has. This morphs personal belief, which trickle to political belief, which run nations.

As for pre-marital sex, well, obviously that was a failure. If all Catholics followed that tradition, there'd be a lot less people and probably a lot less divorce. Which is no fault of the Pope's. He tried. And for not using contraceptives, there's nothing saying someone may already have AIDS, procreate within marriage, and produce HIV+ children. It happens. And if that child, being a child, should mix his/her blood with another child, now it's spread once again. This is all extraordinary circumstances, but hey. Maybe if he had championed more sexual education in third-world countries, there'd be less spread of disease and less pre-marital sex.

And really, what peace DID the Pope bring? He brought peace within his delegation, within the people of his religion. He did not bring peace to anyone else in the world. Obviously not to the US, not to Iraq, not to civil-war-torn countries in Africa. The only people who do that are social reformers and powerful leaders. Actions speak FAR louder than words. He lent a helping hand, but over twenty years with such influence, he really could have done more.

::Shrugs.:: Oh well, onto the next one. I've got money on the fat white dude.

I'm Orthodox Chritian, which is just about as far away as you can get from Catholicism or whatever, so the Pope's death really doesn't bother me.

The only thing I find terrible in this situation is, being Orthodox, I find it rather disgusting that millions of people showed up for this one man who was nothing mroe than that: a man.

Yes, he was a great spiritual leader and very religeous, but I mean, not NEARLY this many showed up even for JESUS! In my humble opinion, the Catholics prize this one man with the simple title "The Pope" in too high standards. He's a man, not God.

But, otherwise, I do hope he's moved on to a better place.

Well since the majority of you all (not all of course) seem to be VERY mis-informed about the Catholic Church, The Papacy, the Church's stand on "sticky" issues and numerous other things, I guess I'll take the time to clear at least a couple things up so you dont walk around the rest of your lives quite so narrow minded making comments on things you don't even know the truth about and putting down the Holy Father as if you are some kind of Saints yourselves.

First off in regards to northstar316's very precise and educated comments that seem to stick out the most...

No he did not tell people with AIDS not to use condoms, he tells the ENTIRE WORLD not to use condoms. Before you make a comment, be sure to include a little more info ok kido? He also follows Christ's rules on pre-marital sex. Meaning whether you have aids or not, His word to us is to ONLY have sex within marriage. Sex is intended for use within marriage and for procreation, whether anyone here wants to argue otherwise, that IS what its for. Does the majority of the world follow these rules? Of course not. Does that mean that its necessarily right? NO.

He also did NOT tell the poor not to use birth control. Once again he tells the ENTIRE WORLD not to use birth control. However the church does allow something called "NFP" or Natural Family Planning, which determines the week or so during a month that a women is most fertile. During this time the couple simply "doesnt do it" and only does it during the other times of the month. It is still 99.9% effective if done correctly, it doesnt require any third party items at all, and it requires alot of communication within the relationship to make it work, which last time I checked, Dr Phil said communication is key to marriage.

He did not lack delagation to Bishops one bit, the Bishops knew their exact responsibilities but as with you and I both, they are human too so of course they arent perfect and they make mistakes. The pope was always very outspoken in letting his people know he is very dissapointed with the problems we are having in the US with sex scandals. But remember, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and even the Pope himself are very much human, and as someone else from another religion stated in another post here, none of them are Divine, only Christ himself was, so problems WILL occur. The thing that makes them stick out so badly is that the media loves it, so 99% of what you hear is negative. The Catholic Church will never deny its problems, but when you consider just how many Catholics are in this world, the number of people affected are much smaller than what the media makes it out to be.

Pope John Paul II was probably the LEAST sexist person in the entire church, he pushed for women to do so much, his values against contraception encourged women to be exactly what Christ created them to be, He was the first to allow Altar Servers to be girls and not just boys, his stands against abortion show his love for women and God's plan for life. I'll be honest with you though, a narrow minded person will not be able to see the goodness of what he's done, so if your having problems, open up a little.

The Pope himself NEVER refused communion to ANYONE.

PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT B4 you talk crap where other people who may not know the truth such as yourself may get the wrong idea.

In regard to the Pope being "out of it" in his old age, this is VERY UNTRUE. The Pope's mind was still very much on top of things. His physical condition was not however, due mostly to his having parkinsons disease. He published a book just months before his sickness seriously worsened.

This Pope was an incredible man. For not being divine, God gave him many incredible graces to do such a great job. No other one person brought so much peace and love to a world filled with so much sin and hate. He was NEVER afraid to go against the grain and stick up for whats right no matter what others "thought" was right. He was the perfect instrument of Christ Himself. Forgiving and pardoning the man who shot him, working hard till the end, suffering for years and still continuing his mission just as Christ did. At his funeral, leaders from countries that were at ends with each other were shaking hands, something that hadnt been done in HISTORY.

Next time dig a little bit deeper and you will be amazed what you will find.

John Paul II... Pray for us, we need it

quote:

Originally posted by CelticNewAger:
I'm sorry, but there are many many other people who have suffered a hell lot more than the Pope ever did and survived, yet people whine on his burial as if he suffered so.

Well I still agree that people suffered more than him, but I bet you those people damn god all the time and blame him for everything, and if they don't, they should be recognized, and maybe even try to be a pope.. By the way, COuld women be popes? No right?

The pope...was a man. Just wanted to clear that up before I started. No divinity here. If you want that, you can go find David Bowie (I'm kidding, you do realize that?).

As for his character, I didn't pay much attention, due to the fact he was both Polish and Catholic and I'm American and Lutheran. I suppose he was a good guy. Third longest papacy in church history, that's gotta count for something. I honestly don't remember who the other two are, but I know one of them was named Leo. Or something. I have a book on the Vatican that has a lot of history in it.

Well, I'm looking forward to John Paul III (if that's what they'll call him). I hope it's that Nigerian guy. First black pope in modern times...wouldn't that be cool. Or even the Spanish dude. As long as the new pope isn't Italian, I'm happy. Italy's been spitting out popes for too long.

quote:

I agree... NO wonder they always say cuss words.

at least athiests don't become so violent that they get kicked off four times, and still have the lifelessness to come back, Jamaica. That is a reward that belongs to one, sad Catholic.

We love you! John Paul II!

quote:

I really don't give a **** about the pope because I'm an athiest... but I think it's terrible that even with all his health problems and his age they still made him travel the world even though he could barely stand up.

You know, I always believe in getting what you deserve. If you think the Pope is like that and you say bad things about him just because you are an atheist then who knows? maybe when you get old, you won't be able to stand up