Not even them, clpo...

Tell a Buddhist you're proud of feeling hate every now and then, or that you just poured dog feces over their automobiles...they'll fast-foward tai-chi your âss...

This further proves my belief that the conservative right has taken over religion. Religion used to be uber-liberal, but not any more. Now you can get excommunicated for voting the wrong way. Wow. And here I thought you religious types were kind and forgiving. Oh wait, I'm thinking of Buddhists.

Most black churches don't support president Bush...but I have never heard any of the churches say...vote for bush and leave the church. No...they just said go out and vote!! But it was clear who they wanted you to vote for. This "pastor" is obviously wrong and stupid. He's not doing his job as a man of god. It's not his place to pass judgement on anyone especially if it has nothing to do with sin, but more to do with politics!

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But they can discuss wether or not an issue is abominable with God's laws or not. That's religious. Schools preach politics, and they're publicly owned. So why can't a church, a private owned organization, preach politics?

Public Schools do not say, "If you don't vote for Bush, you have to leave." Churches can discuss if issues go against god's law, though they cannot tell their congregation to support certain issues.

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Originally posted by bluedemocrat:

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Separation of Church and State is one way. The State cannot connect with the Church, but churches sure as heck can have political views. I know mine does. On abortion, and gay marriage, and a ton of other things!

Churches should not discuss politics. They should be about religon, nothing more. Preaching politics violates their agreement with the IRS.

But they can discuss wether or not an issue is abominable with God's laws or not. That's religious. Schools preach politics, and they're publicly owned. So why can't a church, a private owned organization, preach politics?

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Yes it is a personal choice, thats what I said also. But at the same time wouldnt it be your personal choice to be apart of a religious community that believed in the same things you did.

Most likely. But perhaps these people did believe in most of Bush's values. Who is to say that these people were not anti-abortion? Perhaps, they voted Democrat because they did not like Bush's stance on the war. Neither one of us can know.

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If you read my factual information, you would see that Baptists values are anti-abortion, anti-gay, and concentration of wealtha nd power.

I read that and I believe you. But, as I said before, you can support the canidate without supporting all of his values.

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Why would you chose a religion that did not coinside with you own views and spiritual and even maybe if you want to bring politics into it, political views.

Who are you to judge? My best friend is an extremly conservative Catholic. We get along fine. Spiritual views do not always equate political views no matter what religion you belong to. Perhaps, these people are a part of the church because they want to be with their friends.

My point is that we just don't enough about what happened. Yes, it is puzzling, based on you defintion of the Baptist religion why these democrats remained a part of the church. However, we simply don't know. They could be anti-abortion but anti-war and voted for Kerry. They may want to attend a church to be with friends or uphold a family tradition of being Baptist. Yes, we agree, religion is personal. No one should be able to prevent a person from worshipping.

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How can the church determine what religion is right for people? Religion is a personal choice. These people were obviously satisfied with their conservative church or they would have left by choice.

Yes it is a personal choice, thats what I said also. But at the same time wouldnt it be your personal choice to be apart of a religious community that believed in the same things you did...I'm not talking about Kerry or Bush, I'm talking about personal views and beliefs. If you read my factual information, you would see that Baptists values are anti-abortion, anti-gay, and concentration of wealtha nd power. If you do not believe in that, it would be difficult to feel a part of the community, would it not? The Baptists really concentrate on have central beleafs and ideals...they really concentrate on the congregation being a whole and feeling whole and feeling like everyone shares the same beliefs.

Why would you chose a religion that did not coinside with you own views and spiritual and even maybe if you want to bring politics into it, political views. That's not feeling apart of something. There are plenty of churches and forms of christianity like UCC christian churches, I happen to work at one, they welcome gays, believe in womans choices, and feel everyone can believe in whatever they want,as long as they go to church and believe in God, Jesus, and the holy spirit. See the Baptists do not believe that, and they are a Christian based religion as well...so why dont these 9 join a UCC church...same concept, better views and beliefs that more apply to them. My point is, yes it is there choice to chose there religion, but you need to find a religion that you fit into...not something that clashes with your beliefs. Thats what I was saying Blue.

And I know that the entire congration voted...did you see where I wrote that? You need to read my posts better, there was some good quotes and facts in their, you really pick apart what you want to hear. And it was not just their congragation, it was many congragations that voted...one church cannot make a decision like that...44 more people from the other baptist communites around N.C. also voted, and there was another 44 from other churches taken out of the church. It was a consensus, they voted, and their is only A COUPLE people outraged that are conservative. And when I say conservative and liberal I dont mean that completely political, more conservative in their life-styles more or less.

The point is that your not getting blue is that religion is personal, so these people should make it personal, and chose a congragation that shares some of the most important views as themselves. I will stick to what I said when i say these Baptists helped them, now they can find a religion that they know suits them...Baptist religion did not. Understand?

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Separation of Church and State is one way. The State cannot connect with the Church, but churches sure as heck can have political views. I know mine does. On abortion, and gay marriage, and a ton of other things!

Churches should not discuss politics. They should be about religon, nothing more. Preaching politics violates their agreement with the IRS.

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If your not conservative, or atleast slightly conservative, again why would you join the Church?

It shouldn't matter. A person can be a part of whatever religion/church that he desires. Religion is a very personal choice. Often people join churches for a sense of community. You can support a some aspects of a canidate's platform but not all. 4/5 or 20% is a lot of baptists who are democrats.

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Pastor Chandler's in N.C....did not shun these 9 people because they did not support Bush, in no way shape or form was this political.

How do you know? It was the entire congregation, not just the pastor. Some Republican members of the congregation were outraged by the removal of the democrats.

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These 9 were discluded from the Baptist Organization for many reasons, and mainly because their personal views and religious veiws were not the same of the Baptist community.

Did these personal views include supporting Kerry?

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I see no problems in this, in reality these Baptist Congregations helped these people out tremendously...by allowing them to have their personal freedoms of choosing the religion that is right for them. This obviously was not.

How can the church determine what religion is right for people? Religion is a personal choice. These people were obviously satisfied with their conservative church or they would have left by choice.

Baptists view the Christian life as one of personal faith and of serious dedication to live according to the highest Christian precepts. Most Baptists around the world have remained conservative, even fundamentalist, in matters of both faith and morals. The baptist membership indicates that the church is entered voluntarily but that only believers may participate in its ordinance.

The Baptist belief is that the church is to be governed not by an order of priests, nor through higher or central courts, but through the voice of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the members in each local assembly. Baptists believe in the competence of the local fellowship to govern its own affairs also, Baptists do not speak of the denomination as "the Baptist Church," but as "the Baptist churches" in any given area.

"the essential oneness of the Baptist people in the Lord Jesus Christ, to impart inspiration to the brotherhood, and to promote the spirit of fellowship, service, and cooperation among its members."-(Kavan)

This meaning all above ^... The Baptist Churches invite all, and are open, but if you do not believe in their Christian based religion, it's simply not the church for you.

"And to them, values are anti-abortion, anti-gay rights, concentration of wealth and power. But as I said, Jesus didn't have much to say about what they say are the values of Christians today. And yet, these people really do believe they are in possession of the absolute truth." -(Clinton)

This is apart like former President Clinton said, of the Baptist religion, if you do not believe and hold the same values...ITS NOT THE CHURCH FOR YOU! The Baptist religion holds true to many strict Roman Catholic traditions as well, infact the congregation as a whole, cooperates with the Roman Catholics, which means something, b/ true Southern Baptists Organizations usually seclude themselves, their religion is Christian, but their values are their own. That tells someone something obviously, if you do not believe in what they do...why would you join a Baptist Chruch?

In the 2000 presidential election, Land said, exit polls showed that four out of five Southern Baptists voted for Bush and believed that he "was more in line with their values than their fellow Southern Baptist, Al Gore." --(Yurica report) Ok, so obviously Baptists are conservative mostly, weve noticed, although they value individualism, they also value the same values of a conservative manner. If your not conservative, or atleast slightly conservative, again why would you join the Church?

"As for me and my house, we're going to vote our values, and we encourage everyone else to vote theirs," Land said-(Yurica report)
Baptists are very strict with the fact that their moral values are INCREDIBLY important to them, if you don't share their values, then their Church is not right for you, although they will share that with you, they will not shun you...but their church is not right for you to attend.

I am not baptist, but my grandmother is, and I alot about the ideas of this Christian based Church. And all I can say is this incident is not an outrage..Pastor Chandler's in N.C....did not shun these 9 people because they did not support Bush, in no way shape or form was this political. And if you think it was, your wrong. One Baptist Church does not decide to disclude members...it is a large vote throughout many Baptist churches, this was not the only church whom's congregation voted...this was a majority decision by more than Waynesville's Church. It's not how it works, this church though is getting the heat for it obviously.

These 9 were discluded from the Baptist Organization for many reasons, and mainly because their personal views and religious veiws were not the same of the Baptist community. This community specifically states and fallows there values and beliefs and if you don't share that, then leave. It's not telling someone thy are wrong and will be condemned to purgatory, this Pastor was bettering his church by ridding thoes who did not belong there. Now you may say he does not have the right to do that, he doesn't but the Baptist congregation does. And they did it.

This religion obviously is not right for these people, as it isnt for MANY...it is not the fault of the church, because they clearly state there membership expectations...these 9+ people should find a relgion that stays true to them and their beliefs, it doesnt have to fit perfectly, your allowed to have some alternative views, but when it directly, largley goes against what that religion focuses on, it's OBVIOUSLY not the Church for you.

I see no problems in this, in reality these Baptist Congregations helped these people out tremendously...by allowing them to have their personal freedoms of choosing the religion that is right for them. This obviously was not.

Church are the reason why despotism (sp?) was created. And tyranny (sp? again), and countless wars.

Separation of Church and State is one way. The State cannot connect with the Church, but churches sure as heck can have political views. I know mine does. On abortion, and gay marriage, and a ton of other things!

i can't believe this......a chruch shouldn't have any say in who you vote for, that's a separate issue

why would a democrat want to be in a baptist church anyway?

I don't want any church to support me.

If so, I have failed my mission and have lied to myself.

At least here, members of the Baptist Church are seen as idiots of society, only a level above Jehova's Witnesses.

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Originally posted by bluedemocrat:
Ahh, but here is where you are mistaken. Churches are built on land provided by the IRS and the IRS gives churches tax-breaks. However, the church must agree not to preach politics. This church is going to have some money issues.

A church in my town got in trouble with the IRS when members were told not to vote for Kerry.

That is true, but the Church is still a private organization & recent Supreme Court decisions (see Boy Scouts) have established that private organizations who operate on governmental property can still operate as a private entity.

Ahh, but here is where you are mistaken. Churches are built on land provided by the IRS and the IRS gives churches tax-breaks. However, the church must agree not to preach politics. This church is going to have some money issues.

A church in my town got in trouble with the IRS when members were told not to vote for Kerry.

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Originally posted by bluedemocrat:
Exactly, but isn't that wrong? Politics and Religion are seperate. It all comes back to separation of church and state.

Here is where there probably is the confusion. While people are quick to point out the seperation of church and state, this does not extend to private organizations, which the Church is one. A private organization can legally discriminate against people (and keep them from being members) whereas the government (state) cannot. Therefore, everything that this pastor did is completely legal.

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I think that the Democrats were kicked out of the church because Democrats (just like John Kerry) are pro-abortion. That is also why many Catholic clergy refused to give communion to John Kerry.

Exactly, but isn't that wrong? Politics and Religion are seperate. It all comes back to separation of church and state.

I think that the Democrats were kicked out of the church because Democrats (just like John Kerry) are pro-abortion. That is also why many Catholic clergy refused to give communion to John Kerry.

good they deserve it