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I see your point, but I feel that you (amp) refuse to open your eyes and see both sides.

Heh. Knowing what I know about Amp I'd say you are wrong. That boy's come a long way.

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So on a fundamental level, the army is supposed to serve as a tool to preserve peace.


through massive amounts of force and violence

... First of all, I am against the war from all angles. But, if I believed that the war truly was necessary in order to protect the safety of Americans against the "evil Iraqis".. Yes, force and violence would be needed. It IS a war. However, this war seems to be more of an "Operation Iraq Invasion/Slaughter" rather than "Operation Iraqi Freedom"

On another note, in response to your question.. I have already stated that I dont hate the troops as individuals. Also, below Speed posted: "Im not accusing soldiers of being monsters. In their circumstances it's a natural reaction to environmental factors." That is something I can totally agree with. I see your point, but I feel that you (amp) refuse to open your eyes and see both sides. It seems that you are so obsessed with the idea of Military Hero's you completely blind yourself to anything suggesting they are not always in the right. You said yourself that they are not there for democracy.. Maybe they are there to steal oil? Keyword: steal. Maybe its not that either.. I really dont know why they are there. How could I? How could you? I'm starting to wonder if maybe this isn't about humanity anymore.. maybe you have family in the army and this is more about loyalty to them? I can respect that but I cant respect you trivializing the lives of others as if they don't matter. If the whole world had such a lack of empathy and value for the lives of others, we'd probably all be dead.

PS- Comparing death tolls is wars as if to say that one is less barbaric or better than another.. is like comparing Saddam to Hitler and saying "I guess Saddam wasnt that bad.." Its not practical.

double but the damn thing won't let me edit

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Power plants are a normal military target

cont: because they power things like radar arrays and other fun items they can use to hurt us

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we'll fix em' up when we've crushed these people that are trying to defend their country.

yeah that's the general idea in a war. For reference see, well every war since the american civil war for well documented examples of "tear'em down and build'em up"

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Yet, when I said there is no morally correct reason for US troops to be in Iraq right now.. you said, "to bring democracy"

Your pardon, I mis-typed. I was listing the reasons for being in iraq given by the govt. The majority of them are complete bullshit of course but what's new about that?

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I noticed that your profile causes say War, Violence and Genocide.. this confuses me.

Why? Just because I have a vested intrest in them doesn't mean I'm against them (I am against genocide, belive in war where required and support controlled violence in appropriate situations) sides I'm signing up w/ the marines shortly. You could say war has a major impact on me

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Did you read the article I posted? (Curiousty)..

Yes, and now I have a question for you. Picture yourself as a Marine in Iraq, part of that sarge's unit if you wish. Your doin the same job. You have warning signs up, you yell at the occupants to stop, you fire a shot over the vehicle. They don't stop. They're just wearing civvie clothes, but the S3 (Brigade Intell Officer) just said that enemy soldiers and terrorists are wearing civilian clothes. In this case if you make absolutely sure these folks are civs and your wrong, you die. Plain as that if you are wrong, you are dead, wether by explosion or bullet or maybe even something esoteric like a sword, you are dead. So what are you going to do? take the shot and preserve your life? or take one hell of a gamble and live as long as luck holds out?

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The civilian casualties are easily in the hundreds of thousands

ABC has it at around 50,000. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ has it at around 64-70000
I can't find CNNs offical estimate

For Comparison:
Vietnam: 600000+
WW2(Both Theaters, not counting holocaust): 41,507,600+
WW1: 8,865,649

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overkill mode

does bagdahd still exist? then we weren't any where close to over kill mode. The whole war has been precision tactical strikes by guided missles and stealth (or not so stealth) aircraft. Power plants are a normal military target

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I hate to break it to you but this is one of the most bloodless wars in history when it comes to civvie casualties.

amp you just overdid it there. The civilian casualties are easily in the hundreds of thousands, be it direct casualties(our soldiers shoot them), accidental casualties(bombing homes and schools by mistake, getting caught up in crossfire), or indirect casualties(we destabilize a country, provoke a civil war, thousands die because of it)

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for the mass amount of the time the US Military applies the force exactly as needed

Actually, the oficial tactic when Iraq was first invaded was to go into overkill mode and destroy absolutely everything to crush the enemy's morale... Just bomb them hospitals and power plants, we'll fix em' up when we've crushed these people that are trying to defend their country.

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innocent people die every day the world over

Of course they do, the only problem is that we are responsible for these particular deaths. Sitting on our moral highchair saying we want to bring democracy to the middle east while thousands die in our democratized nations is a bit of a contradiction.

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brainwashed

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uh no shit sherlock? the service branches have known that since this furball started

Ps- the above quote is what you said in response to Speed. (saying the army was not there to bring democracy no matter what they were brainwashed to think)

Yet, when I said there is no morally correct reason for US troops to be in Iraq right now.. you said, "to bring democracy"

... Huh? Are you confused?

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We're not out there murdering people.

WE are not doing much of anything. WE are at home, safe, debating. Now, Im aware that you are an educated guy and you're not just rambling about nonsense here.. but, I think that if the tables were turned and your country was invaded with Soldiers killing your family.. you MAY think a little differently. If you're parents we're shot while trying to innocently get to safety.. you would not say so calmly, "they got in the way" ... Did you read the article I posted? (Curiousty).. And also, I noticed that your profile causes say War, Violence and Genocide.. this confuses me.

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So on a fundamental level, the army is supposed to serve as a tool to preserve peace.

through massive amounts of force and violence

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I don't think so, the army is well know to commit acts of unjustified violence quite frequently. Don't be mistaken, I'm not accusing soldiers of being monsters. In their circumstances it's a natural reaction to environmental factors, but violence nonetheless.

Now agree unjustifed violence exists, but for the mass amount of the time the US Military applies the force exactly as needed

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That is not true and you know it,

don't take things out of context, if the bad guy looks like a civ, and a civ makes a threatining motion and you die if it is an attack your going to shoot

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Recent surveys show that a large percentage of marines are actually quite racist.

I know, that last was sarcasm

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Bottom line is innocent people are dying everyday because of this. Civilians. Is that okay?

so? innocent people die every day the world over, people who are murdered by their own goverments. At least the people in Iraq have a chance to be free being murdered by their own people or not.

You seem to be part of the vietnam generation in that you think everytime johnny goes marching off to war it results in another Mai Lai. Well guess what sweet heart we're not there to kill civs. If we were that country would be nuclear glass right now. In fact let's go back to vietnam and review. Rampant murders by troops, Carpet Bombing of civilian population centers and the list just goes on. I hate to break it to you but this is one of the most bloodless wars in history when it comes to civvie casualties. We're not out there murdering people. We're taking the fight to the enemy and sometimes the innocent get in the way. That happens when you fight in a ubran combat zone, that happens in war.

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say that sentance in any barracks in the US military, I gurantee your ass will be laugherd right out the door

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/24/148212

An article that I suggest you read. It is an interview with a Marine who served in Iraq.

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Ever hear of an IED? or RPGs? or those suicide bombers? get your head out of your ass and pay attention

I pay a lot of attention. I care a lot. I would also appreciate it if you had some respect for the people expressing their opinions in this debate. But, thats just me. Moving on: Yes I have heard of these things. I also have the sense to realize that the American victims that are being harmed are INVADING IRAQ. I have nothing against the troops as individuals. I, however, do have a problem with innocent people (both from Iraq & the US) being murdered. As far as promoting democracy goes, Saddam is gone and the US does not own the world. I saw that you realize the debate of whether or not the it is the job of the US to enforce democracy is a completely different issue. Maybe so. Bottom line is innocent people are dying everyday because of this. Civilians. Is that okay? And how does that promote democracy? To me when someone is using violence and fear in order to get there own way, that seems like dictatorship.

Im sorry, why do we give a #$@$ what Rosie O'Donnell says? Good on Trump for giving that filthy object flack.
As usual, "The west is scum, go the non-west!".

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that is an awful and very incorrect stereotype. Marines do not judge based on race. They judge based on wether you are a marine or not and discriminate accordingly. (and yes marines are slightly over-bearing/arrogant that's because they're the best and they know it)

Recent surveys show that a large percentage of marines are actually quite racist.

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Any one who joins a military for "peace" deserves a quick firing squad before they can breed and pass on more stupidity to the human race

No, infact, the supposed purpose behind having an army is the protection of the peace and integrity of one's homeland. So on a fundamental level, the army is supposed to serve as a tool to preserve peace.

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your missing a very key part of the definition. Terrorists directly and intentionaly attack civilians while soldiers attack arms bearing men and women ie "the enemy"

That is not true and you know it, soldiers in Iraq are under a huge ammount of stress and pressure, thus this results in them killing innocent civilians by accident because they are so scared of everything around them they can't help being trigger happy. Doesn't matter what terrorists do, the fact is that the civilian casualties aren't going to decrease unless we somehow stop the civil war that is going on and then GTFO.

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Ever hear of an IED? or RPGs? or those suicide bombers? get your head out of your ass and pay attention

Do not take things out of context, getting fired at with RPG's is the best treatment we can ask for because we are occupying their country against their will. So no, Iraq does not bomb america, we literally have put ourselves in a position in which we deserve to be bombed, nothing less could be expected from Iraqis. People need to get that through their head.

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say that sentance in any barracks in the US military, I gurantee your ass will be laugherd right out the door

I don't think so, the army is well know to commit acts of unjustified violence quite frequently. Don't be mistaken, I'm not accusing soldiers of being monsters. In their circumstances it's a natural reaction to environmental factors, but violence nonetheless.

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Why is that our job?

it's not, I'm saying that's the moral reasoning for being in Iraq, wether that's our place our not is another discussion entirely

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to bring democracy,

Why is that our job?

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unecessary violence exists in the army

say that sentance in any barracks in the US military, I gurantee your ass will be laugherd right out the door

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When do you we see Iraq bombing the US on the news

Ever hear of an IED? or RPGs? or those suicide bombers? get your head out of your ass and pay attention

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I honestly can see no moral/proven reason why the troops are even in Iraq.

Moral: to bring democracy, free innocents from heel of violent dictator, et al
proven: cause we can / oil depending on who you ask

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Originally posted by YouthVoice:
On May 17th Rosie O'Donnell compared the U.S troops to terrorists on "The View."

Here is the link to the video:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789

Thoughts? Opinions? Anything on the subject?

I think Rosie is a strong woman who has plenty of knowledge to back up her beliefs. She does not think the troops, as individuals, are terrorists. She has stated that she loves them, wants them home, and wants them safe. She does however know what racism and unecessary violence exists in the army due to false beliefs portrayed by the government & the media. It takes a strong person to not allow the media to make up their mind. When do you we see Iraq bombing the US on the news? We don't. There is no "War on Terror".. It is a "War of Terror" and innocent Iraqi people, and US soldiers are falling victim to it. I'm not challenging the existence of terrorists, but I do know that the US government IS terrorizing Iraq. And for what? I honestly can see no moral/proven reason why the troops are even in Iraq.

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stereotype that marines are a bunch of arrogant racists.

that is an awful and very incorrect stereotype. Marines do not judge based on race. They judge based on wether you are a marine or not and discriminate accordingly. (and yes marines are slightly over-bearing/arrogant that's because they're the best and they know it)

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scream as loud as you can that you joined the army for peace, not to kill people

Any one who joins a military for "peace" deserves a quick firing squad before they can breed and pass on more stupidity to the human race

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What do terrorist do? They try to carry out political change through the use of violence and fear.
What are our troops doing? carrying out politcal change through violence and intimidation.

your missing a very key part of the definition. Terrorists directly and intentionaly attack civilians while soldiers attack arms bearing men and women ie "the enemy". The problem with the type of war were in is that the bad guys don't were uniforms, they lack the testicals to really fight and assualt rifles are as common there as rich people with low IQs in Massachusets. So this resultsin our troops being in a crowd of folks who all wear the similer civvie clothes typical to the area and and all have guns and any one them could actually be a bad guy just waiting for a soldier to turn his back

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You are not there to bring democracy no matter what you've been brainwashed to believe

uh no shit sherlock? the service branches have known that since this furball started

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You are only in Iraq to help further the personal agenda of the current whitehouse incumbents

Ditto every forgein war fought by any nation in history.

as to Ms O'donald. I suggest we send her in to the green zone with out escort for a while to meet the real terrorists and if she survives see what she says then

What do terrorist do? They try to carry out political change through the use of violence and fear.
What are our troops doing? carrying out politcal change through violence and intimidation. Regardless of their mission statement, and their true individual intentions being the protection of Iraqis, the fact is that there have been to many family's machinegunned on suspition, and people detained arbitrarily.
If you add to that the fact that a large part of the army are openly racist towards Iraqis you get terrorists, if not in name, in actions.
Not all the army is like this, but the face the media, both islamic and western, put's on the soldiers contributes to disseminate the stereotype that marines are a bunch of arrogant racists.
I've heard too many people say how shitty it feels to be in a hostile environment where the local population hates you. To fucking bad. You are not there to bring democracy no matter what you've been brainwashed to believe. You are only in Iraq to help further the personal agenda of the current whitehouse incumbents, and Iraqis know it. That's why they hate you.
You want Iraqis to love you? put down your weapon and refuse to fight, make a mediatic case of it, get on the news while they're trying to detain you to court marshall you. And when you're being arrested by the MP's scream as loud as you can that you joined the army for peace, not to kill people. That's true altruism. I'd do it but going to jail isn't my thing, and I'm not an altruist or in need of a job. My two cents.

I'm not going to give her very much sympathy, because waving that statistic around is just as stupid as Scarborough said, and Rosie definitely does need to back up her claims more. But in her defense, I don't see where she explicitly equated our troops to terrorists. She equated "us" to terrorists, which (unless I'm missing something) could mean the U.S. government just as easily as the U.S. troops.

I don't see where she should be fired for this (and yes, I know this is pointless to discuss). "News" personalities are saying things just as despicable as that on a regular basis.