doesa anyone understand communism not the fomr demonstrated today but the theory of true communsim, im writing a book on it and i would like some people to read an excerpt and tell me what they think, its about 250 pages long so ill only give you an excerpt.

I feel like Karl Marx is only a hero to people who read the Communist Manifesto at age 14 right after reading some Orwell and thinking, "Cool! Punk!"

Read some postmodern takes on Marxism. Your eyes will glaze over and you'll want to kill yourself. Seriously. Marxism is dull, and could have been thought out better.

This has nothing to do with The Man brainwashing students to like capitalism. It has to do with human nature and the fact that most utopian ideas just don't work. Even socialism and anarchism, as much as I like both ideas, require a pretty mature and intellectual society where people seriously think about the implications of everything they do.

I say we improve the country's educational system, work on moving towards direct democracy, and take it from there.

quote:

Originally posted by theatredork23:
However, there are several successful Socialist countries. These are like communist countries, but have a small open market (private enterprise)... mixing communism and capitalism in a way. (China, Vietnam, etc). Although the governments are stricter, they still are legitimate and work.

"Stricter"? You mean "responsible for some of the greatest curtailings of human rights and liberties in the modern age"? The fact that you're even trying to defend such deplorable and egregious violators of basic human decency as China and Vietnam is sickening.

And quite frankly, they are barely even "successful" from a technical standpoint. China is, for all intents and purposes a capitalist dictatorship. They opened the market floodgates and suddenly realized that it's becoming harder and harder to reconcile their dictatorial regime with a free and open exchange of ideas. Lenin did say that in a true communist society there would be no state. From an evolutionary standpoint, these so-called socialist states will not evolve into stateless utopias of agrarian peace and happiness; they will simply suffocate under the weight of their own dictatorial control. Socialism and communism must have an inherent freedom in them before they can ever succeed, much less be justified by being called "legitimate."

quote:

Originally posted by markwarner4president:
Unfortunately, the USA's educational system has trained most of its students to dislike or even hate any system other than the capitalist society that we live in, which is controlled by the corporatocracy (the corporations that control the system of gov't that we live in) and small groups of neofascist leaders that take over the gov't in a silent and unseen coup d'etat.

Yep. The Man's gettin' you down. Give me a break. Every student has available to him or her the tools necessary to make an informed decision about the viability of Marx's and Engel's ideas. Every student is invited to open debate and to examine the facts and arguments. If they believe what they choose to, its their own fault.

I swear, I almost want to turn in my Liberal Membership Card because we're so full of angsty little know-it-alls whose only response to anything is that it's that mysterious and unknown Big Brother who is somehow Repressing Us All. It's not just you, Mark; it's practically every teenage liberal I've ever met. I know you're idealistic, but please just stop. You make us look bad by blaming corporations for every damned thing that goes wrong in this country. And then you go on a little foray into the local Wal-Mart then stop at the Exxon for some gas and a Coke on the way home. Consider what you're saying and think: Do I want to be the fifty-year-old hippie who lives in a VW Bus and drives from peace rally to peace rally? Rallies, activism, protest, yes, they're all fun, and they're a good way to get involved. But no one's ever going to take you seriously if that's all you do.

Nobody wants to talk to the guy who's rambling on about how the corporations are stealing our souls, and how the Iraq War was actually a plot by Halliburton and Exxon to make money, and Wal-Mart was really responsible for bringing down the Twin Towers, and, by God, they're not going to get away with this! Mark, please don't be that guy. Same for you, Theatre (Don't be that gal in your case). Same for all you other aspiring "rebellious liberals" out there. The only person who wants to talk to that guy are people who are just like him. The only people who take him seriously are people Just. Like. Him. And ranting on with one unsupportable conspiracy theory after another to people who don't see them as anything other than the gospel truth really isn't going to ever solve anything. Please, stay liberal. But please, think about whether or not you're going to be that kind of liberal.

Now, I may have you both pegged totally wrong. If I have, then I apologize. But you need to think about what's worth fighting for, and what people are going to take seriously. Because if no one takes you seriously, you've already become irrelevant.

Or said students simply have learned a little bit more about communism than other supposedly "more enlightened" individuals...*cough cough*

The key phrase is "in a utopian society". Utopias do not exist, so therefore, communism, marxism, all that stuff, is ineffectual and we have had to find better alternatives...namely, capitalism.

Karl Marx and Frederich Engels are 2 of my biggest heroes. They thought up a system that, when in a utopian society, would be good for the collective society. Unfortunately, the USA's educational system has trained most of its students to dislike or even hate any system other than the capitalist society that we live in, which is controlled by the corporatocracy (the corporations that control the system of gov't that we live in) and small groups of neofascist leaders that take over the gov't in a silent and unseen coup d'etat.

Gah. Communism has continuosly failed because of unsucessful collectivization and the unability to go at a reasonable pace for farming/industry (they go to fast, make too much that is too crappy). Often, this leads to corruption and dictatorship.
However, there are several successful Socialist countries. These are like communist countries, but have a small open market (private enterprise)... mixing communism and capitalism in a way. (China, Vietnam, etc). Although the governments are stricter, they still are legitimate and work.
These governments are usually started by years of conflict and revolution, to overthrough a government that is corrupt and has a majority of very poor rural people (who usually make a living from agriculture). They want the same things that other countries want: independence, freedom, liberty, and to make a living. While traditionally the United States has looked down on communism and given it a very negative view, it generally hasn't been seen from the point of view of the other country. I think that it's a great idea, but due to failure of implemation and understanding, it has not been successful.

quote:

Originally posted by Lucpol:
At the heart of communism lies the ideal of:''Common opportunity, common good and an equal share of resources. Collective instead of isolation. Teamwork instead of exception. Peace through co-operation!''

This is reason #1 why Communism has failed.

Reason #2 is people digging up six-month-dead threads and posting two sentences.

Welcome to the Internets.

At the heart of communism lies the ideal of:''Common opportunity, common good and an equal share of resources. Collective instead of isolation. Teamwork instead of exception. Peace through co-operation!''

quote:

But the thing is they want over four grand for ONE COURSE. This doesnt even include airfare to any of these places. I dunno about some of you, but I'm not sitting over here drinking Premium Brandy in my Wiltshire Mansion on an imported Italian leather chair which vibrates. I dont have that kind of $$$$$.

That's why they have student loans and scholarships. I've found that you get what you pay for. I'm getting probably twice if not three times the education at my college from the state school equivilent, not to mention all the amazing oppurtunities and connections that I've had as a direct result from my department.

quote:

I'm applying to be a Congressional page next summer.

THats the one. Ive been talking with myt congressman for the past several years on teh subject of being his page...you know get on his good side...I then find out that he is no longer accepting pages. dammit. two years wasted.
Ah well. Too bad I dont have a conservative senator but I'll tell you after applying for years, applying for Feingold is starting to sound pretty damn good...

quote:

Originally posted by redrepublican:
As a side note, the only thing I could credibly see myself doing is being an intern for my Congressman in DC.

I'm applying to be a Congressional page next summer.

quote:

I was invited toeh Inaguration of President Bush.

Hey! So was I! But of course, you can imagine what my reaction to that was.

I can't count the number of times I've been sent similar things to the NYLC. Student ambassador, youth technology conferences, all asking at least $1000 a pop, not counting the cost of actually getting there. I may be somewhat of a leader, but I'm not that kind of leader.

As a side note, the only thing I could credibly see myself doing is being an intern for my Congressman in DC.
I'm a pretty big city hater, but Washington DC, its just beautiful.

quote:

No. I don't have that kind of money readily at hand

This is my problem. THe way I look at it, this is just some thing for both politician's and rich businessmen's kids. I have been accepted to a couple politcal science courses at Georgetown, Yale, Northwestern, Stanord, and Princeton....twice

But the thing is they want over four grand for ONE COURSE. This doesnt even include airfare to any of these places. I dunno about some of you, but I'm not sitting over here drinking Premium Brandy in my Wiltshire Mansion on an imported Italian leather chair which vibrates. I dont have that kind of $$$$$.

I was invited to see Karl Rove. They wanted $70 bucks a person. umm...no. (Tells you how freaking poor I am.)

I was invited toeh Inaguration of President Bush. (Well I proabably would have went to this had i been able to get out of school. THe memory still pains me.)

quote:

Originally posted by AMF8:
I got a stupid NYLC thing. in the garbage it went. its not like the thing is non-profit.

I can't wait to go. I've been to DC once before, and it was grand.

quote:

its funny how u didnt reply to anything else in my post other than when i was making fun of you.

I got people comin' at me 5, 6 at a time. Sometimes I can't get to a rebuttal at once, but I'm trying...

quote:

hmmm what is your icon?

The Fourth Independence Flag of the Confederate States of America.

also reactionary, dont think you are well read because you read books on politics.

unless you are reading Hobbes, Machiavelli, paine, or any other classics tha5t have to do with politics, economics, and social systems, you are not reading anything that teaches you anything.

you cant read random book by Rush Limbaugh or some book called "why the right is right" and say "im well read and im self educating"

all those books do is offer economic, social, and political commentary on a direct level from a certain point of view

seriously, read books written by authors and smart men who are not just political partisan ******s.

I know in books written by real writers with real minds of their own, sometimes it is hard to see what they are getting at, their point, or how they are commenting on government and society.

we call it reading between the lines.

someone who only reads novels about military history and politics may be educated, but he or she is not truly as smart as someone who reads peice of literature.


people who can read all the great works can eat up a political "my point of view is right" novel, but a person who normally reads ted kennedy, or joe schmo conservative wont be able to get through a book like The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann or something.

books on present day politics or the military only really give analysis, they are only a report.



seriously if you only read books on present day politics or military history, then you dont read, period.

I got a stupid NYLC thing. in the garbage it went. its not like the thing is non-profit.

its funny how u didnt reply to anything else in my post other than when i was making fun of you.

wonder why i may mistake you for not supporting the abolitionist POV??? hmmm what is your icon?

Eh, even if I had the money, I wouldn't have gone. Personal preference. I don't want to involve myself in politics, even juvenile quasi-politics.

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
Did I accept? No. I don't have that kind of money readily at hand.

Neither do I. Its why I fundraise.

quote:

And I'm told not to judge! The hypocrisy is deafening. Before you try to rip into my education, I was just appointed by Congressman Mark Kennedy as an "outstanding scholar" (their words) to represent Minnesota in October in Washington DC at the National Young Leader's Conference. Was anyone else appointed and accepted into that?

I was. Actually I went to National Youth Leadership Forum, NYLC was a bunch of hacks, they didn't even have to wear ties.