http://www.americanvaluesclub.org
Cahirman is a YN member (me), so you make yourself look good by supporting the organization. Current campaign of interest: fair distribution of electoral votes in Ohio.
Everyone is free to donate of course; people in Ohio old enough to vote should sign the initiative petition, and Ohioans of voting age or not should volunteer to circulate it (helpful hint: we'll have paid fundraising jobs in a week or so, and people who do volunteer work are given preference in hiring for those). I'm in Cleveland working on it now; call me at 1-877-484-2251 if you want to join up. Need volunteers in at least 44 counties, so don't be shy.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalianStallion:
Ok, perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying, or simply not reading my posts. The reason the Jefferson, Madison, and Jay's philosophies and ideologies will NEVER change is because they are dead. All we have to go on is there publications, which are written documents that, according to copyright legislation, cannot be changed without author's consent. Ergo, the philosophies and ideologies established by and credited to these three individuals cannot change.

Of course the majority opinion changes and different viewpoints are adopted, but Madison's view will always be Madison's view. Jefferson's philosophy will always be the same philosophy and Jay's ideological standpoint will remain unchanged no matter what.

Oh yes sorry. I thought you meant philosophies in general. I didn't know you were reffering to their viewpoints. In that case you are correct.

Hm. I took it to mean philosophies and ideologies in general, not just the ones of certain people. In that case, you are right. Those can't change. But the ideologies of a nation can, which is what I took it to mean.

Ok, perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying, or simply not reading my posts. The reason the Jefferson, Madison, and Jay's philosophies and ideologies will NEVER change is because they are dead. All we have to go on is there publications, which are written documents that, according to copyright legislation, cannot be changed without author's consent. Ergo, the philosophies and ideologies established by and credited to these three individuals cannot change.

Of course the majority opinion changes and different viewpoints are adopted, but Madison's view will always be Madison's view. Jefferson's philosophy will always be the same philosophy and Jay's ideological standpoint will remain unchanged no matter what.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalianStallion:
I'll assume you're being sarcastic, if not, then I'm severly disappointed. Ideological and philosophical standpoints held by our founding fathers will not change, ever, because they're kind of...how should I put this...dead.

But philiophical points do as well change over time. Perhaps more slowly but they nonetheless change. There was little to no concept of rights in the 1100's but advance 600 years and we've got philosophers advancing the field. You've got the creation of communism and fascism. I think its fair to say that philosophical viewpoints do change. Whether they should in this country can be argued however.

I'll assume you're being sarcastic, if not, then I'm severly disappointed. Ideological and philosophical standpoints held by our founding fathers will not change, ever, because they're kind of...how should I put this...dead.

quote:

ideological and philosophical standpoints do not

I'd like to know how you figured that one out.

mac, while times do change, ideological and philosophical standpoints do not. The electoral procedures upon which this nation were founded were not intended to be temporary stepping stones which would be replaced as soon as they became "outdated" but they were meant for the lasting security of our nation. Keep in mind that FML refers to the spirit and vision of Madison, Jefferson and Jay, not particular policies. Besides, slavery and electoral procedings are a little different. One involved the economy of the nation and, at the time, was viewed as necessary to sustain such an economy (please keep in mind that I am not condoning slavery). The other involves an issue of political stability. There were certain principles upon which this nation was founded that are not meant to be changed or altered. They have lasting value an should absolutely be used as a measure in today's standards.

quote:

Originally posted by FreeMarketLover:
This is just another group trying to help the urban areas to seperate from and ignore the rural heart of our country. Good luck jerks. You disgrace the legacy of Thomas Jefferson who advocated a strong rural voice in our country. You disgrace the vision of James Madison who knew that to have a strong union you had to have strong states wihthin it. I'll laugh in 2008 when the Democratic candidate wins the popular vote in Ohio but loses the election because the rural electoral votes gave the Republicans all we needed to win the presidency. You can try to silence the heart of our country, but you will fail. These are the people who work the land like our founding fathers before us. The spirit of Madison, Jefferson and Jay will live on in them even after it has died in you. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Times change. Our founding fathers lived in a different age than us. To compare views with them is fundamentally flawed. They also wanted slaves. Are we all not disgracing their legacy? They all did not have a computer either. Are we not disgracing their legacy. I'll do what's best for the country. I dont care which founding father it disgraces. To use them as a measure is foolish.

Socrates, if you must keep beating the dead horse of unfair electoral procedures in Ohio, perhaps you should also set your cause against the unfair electoral procedures carried out in the Washington state gubernatorial race where the liberal contingent has been accussed of practising illegal and unfair electoral procedures against the conservative gubernatorial candidate.
USA Today article 5/2/2005

I'll assume you're a bipartisan organization (even though I highly doubt it). But don't try and turn the other cheek when you are so hotly holding on to a lost cause. Ohio was originally considered a swing state and all the political pundits knew that it's electoral votes would be enough to put it over the top. So if the election was so close everywhere else, why was Ohio the only state monitored for fraud? Simply because it was the headlined one before hand, no other reason. Every other claim has been proven false or lacking evidence (hence why John Kerry backed down from his claims).

So, if you must procede in this manner, I ask that you search out the true dilemma occuring in the state of Washington.

This is just another group trying to help the urban areas to seperate from and ignore the rural heart of our country. Good luck jerks. You disgrace the legacy of Thomas Jefferson who advocated a strong rural voice in our country. You disgrace the vision of James Madison who knew that to have a strong union you had to have strong states wihthin it. I'll laugh in 2008 when the Democratic candidate wins the popular vote in Ohio but loses the election because the rural electoral votes gave the Republicans all we needed to win the presidency. You can try to silence the heart of our country, but you will fail. These are the people who work the land like our founding fathers before us. The spirit of Madison, Jefferson and Jay will live on in them even after it has died in you. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Apparntly you didn't.

If you had a point, you mean.

Nyuck nyuck nyuck.

I suppose you didn't get my point.

quote:

Originally posted by Bushsupporter:
I am involved in a similar cause. It is a drie to defecate on the Constitution and dig up all of the founding fathers and pee on their dead bodies. It is basically the same thing.

I told everyone you were doing that.We now have a confession everyone!

Their bodies should be quite decomposed by now, perhaps you should just **** on Independence Hall.

I am involved in a similar cause. It is a drie to defecate on the Constitution and dig up all of the founding fathers and pee on their dead bodies. It is basically the same thing.