yeah what does a themepark look like from the inside of the exhibit? I've never spoken to zoo animals about but your close enough

No, read my post before that...when I say I'm done with this bullsh*t, that means I'm done with this bullsh*t. If you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, then I don't feel like wasting my time. Especially when you have a little minion who wants to come in and attack me for no reason whatsoever. You both are such a joke. Talking to you two is like being in a theme park for schmucks.

is that really all you've got? that's just sad

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I think we may have upset her

We! hahahhaaha
What's next for you guys? You goin on a date?

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little blood-sucking buddy

I think you were just insulted Hydrok

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I don't give a sh!t about what was written

that explains so much about you

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Oh well, I'm over this bullsh*t.

I think we may have upset her

oh great...i see this board has been contaminated by amp's little blood-sucking buddy.

I'm pretty disappointed people can't even fight their own battles. And just some advice Hydrok. Don't get into something you know nothing about. I'm sorry you have to take everything so personal. But when I think someone is being arrogant then I'll say it. You can fill yourself in all you want, but I suggest you do that before making a comment. Because you make no sense whatsoever. And I see no point in arguing with you because you got amp's back right now and that's just ridiculous. I'm not wasting my time with you. I'm over this bullsh*t.

Shit, I lost track, someone wanna fill me in... From what I gathered miss holliewood, gave an opinion, without backing it up, Amp then made smart ass comment (well done my young padawan) which then pissed off holliewood, so she went on a rant about how amp is the stupidest person in history or some such...

She likes the words arrogant and ignorant quite a bit... and she tosses them around pretty freely... see, I like the fact that she thinks she can land a one sentence statement out there targeting quite a large demographic and expect everyone to know exactly what she's referring to without any prior or latter knowledge on the subject. So that pretty much frees amp of all claims of being ignorant or arrogant.

Heh, sorry i had to chuckle at how she doesn't live by the survival of the fittest attitude... seeing how it's the only way to make it in life I would suggest subscribing to that phlosophy pretty quick.

And then as far as the name calling thing goes... tell ya what makes life oh so much easier... how about rather than stating one "fact" or "opinion" and leaving it at that, how about you explain what you mean right away along with it, so that way it doesn't look like your attacking multiple civilizations all at once. Thats a pretty tall order for someone as small in common sence and logic as yourself.

Wow, you know it just hit me, why is it that young people have this incredible need to lay blame somewheres.... even when there is no one around who is actually responsible... To quick to judge.

But to conclude, again dont post one sentence replies, think, process info, type, proof read, then post... save yourself a little drama...

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So what exactly are you saying

I'm saying that just because someone wasn't in poverty doesn't mean they don't have problems and the reason I responded with such...force was I am sick of your arrogance. and poverty is not an insurmountable thing for any one all you have to do is work hard enough

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And seriously, stop watching so many disney movies.

where the hell is this coming from? walt was a great guy and he made some excellent cartoons but do you seriously think that I or any one pulls out a philosophy from them? if so you are plain ridiculous.

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BTW, don't be such a hypocrite. You yell at me for pulling out a so-called race card and then you pull out a what?...mental card.

the only reason I pointed out my issue is that you seem convinced that people other than say poor african americans don't get delt bad hands in life

wow...someone have a bad day? Or have you run out of intellectual things to say? I'm guessing its a little bit of both.

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well what the hell do you know then? We all have our goddam problems I was born with a freaking mental disorder! and I have worked my ass off for 16 years to over come that disorder so don't talk to me about getting the short end of the freaking stick! Poverty is one of the problems most easy to over come because all you have to do is apply yourself and freakin work!

So what exactly are you saying? Because you have a mental disorder, you have the ultimate authority on what is right, or what it's like to be African-American? And poverty is easy to overcome!? thats quite a powerful statement. Many people who are in and who have been in poverty would strongly disagree with you. Me, being one of them. You asked me what I know. I know poverty, because my family used to be in it. But I don't need to go into it.

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well when someone rants and rave about a problem they usually have a solution and we'd like to here that solution

No, I'm sorry, but you're just wrong on that one. And just in case you weren't, I don't have a solution to a problem that took place 100 years ago. If I had a time machine, that would be a different story.

To everything else you said, its the same thing you stated before. But unlike you, I'm not going to repeat myself. If you wanna know what I think about the way you think human existence works, then you can read what I said before. And seriously, stop watching so many disney movies.

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fyi we all look at the other side of and argument and btw no one gives a shit if your caucasian and native american, no gives a damn if your black, yellow or pink with large purple polka dots. Any form of race card gets real old, real fast so please drop it.

And neither do I. I was responding to Nushoes who assumed my relatives were native americans. And everyone thinking that I'm blaming something on them. I wasn't pulling a race card. I was proving a point. If I was putting the fault on people of European descent, then I would be at fault too. And when you think about it, it does *&^%ing matter so don't tell me what to do. I'm pretty sure if you had grown up on a reservation you would have dramatically different views. Everyone likes to defend their own race and justify their actions, even when they are wrong. That seems to be one of our biggest problems. People like to see the world based on their own experiences, which is fine until they start making up rules and thinking they are right.
BTW, don't be such a hypocrite. You yell at me for pulling out a so-called race card and then you pull out a what?...mental card. Don't be so ridiculous.

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Coming from a person who doesn't have the experience of growing up and getting dealt the lower hand most of the time, are you even the right person to say that?

well what the hell do you know then? We all have our goddam problems I was born with a freaking mental disorder! and I have worked my ass off for 16 years to over come that disorder so don't talk to me about getting the short end of the freaking stick! Poverty is one of the problems most easy to over come because all you have to do is apply yourself and freakin work!

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I have to solve something when I'm writing on an online message board?

well when someone rants and rave about a problem they usually have a solution and we'd like to here that solution

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but is that what you are going to tell people who are looking to you for help.

yes it is, I will extend the helping hand when needed but if a person is not willing to help themselves, to work to improve themselves my time and money are wasted on them

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Is human existence about lifting yourself up or is it about helping others?

To me it's about rising above our conditions once we have helped ourselves we can help others help themselves but with out the will to help yourself why should others even try? we all have it within us to be the next Bill Gates or what not you just need the force of will to do it.

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And btw, I am both white and native american and I am willing to look at both sides

fyi we all look at the other side of and argument and btw no one gives a shit if your caucasian and native american, no gives a damn if your black, yellow or pink with large purple polka dots. Any form of race card gets real old, real fast so please drop it.

excuse me nushoes, but this board said to say who in your opinion were the stupidest people in history. And I gave my freakin opinion. Then I defended my opinion because someone obviously believed I wasn't entitled to it. I have my reasons for what I think and I am stating them, b!tching them, whatever you wanna call it. But that is pretty much what everyone does on this site. B!tch their opinions. And for God's sake I never blamed any of you people for anything and I'm not out to solve something here. Is this a new requirement? I have to solve something when I'm writing on an online message board? C'mon, get real! I simply said

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the ignorant europeans that came here to form America, "the land of the free"

I'm just giving my opinion just like you are! Stop being so *&^%ing narrow-minded! And maybe you should read everything that was written before you start posting something where you have no idea what you are talking about.

And btw, I am both white and native american and I am willing to look at both sides. That is how I got my opinion. But again, if I was looking for somebody to be at fault then I would care.

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And really the whole struggle of human existance is not living with the hand your delt it's overcoming that hand that makes us human. We all get a pretty raw deal in life (well most of us) but if any man (or woman or anyhing else) works hard and hangs tough they can over come anything. By blaming our past for our now we destroy our future, but if we improve our now regardless of our past our future will shine all the brighter. (Oh that's good someone right that down!)

And thats great Walt Disney, but is that what you are going to tell people who are looking to you for help. Not everybody has your viewpoint on how human existence works...which means you also can't expect everyone to accept that philosophy. It's true to an extent, in an individualistic way, that we all try to overcome the difficulties in our lives. But when it comes to an entire group of people, are you going to tell them "hey, its ok, just try and overcome your shortcomings." Coming from a person who doesn't have the experience of growing up and getting dealt the lower hand most of the time, are you even the right person to say that? (and I'm making a great assumption, but by what you said I would be surprised if you were an African-American living in poverty)...Anyway, your philosophy might be a hopeful one, but it doesn't help anyone but yourself. Is human existence about lifting yourself up or is it about helping others? You alone can't speak for the world.

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/c I sure as hell don't live by that attitude, and its hard to define the attitudes of people from over a h

Neither do most of us. Today. It was a different ballgame in the 17th, 18th, 19th centuries. B!tch!ng about how the white man did this and that solves nothing, especially since pretty much everybody else had as little disregard for human life as the European settlers.

What our ancestors did is not my fault, anymore than what yours did is yours.

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What do you think happened? Slaves all of a sudden became free and BOOM everything is just great? Just think about it for a minute...where would you go to live, how would you get a job, education for your family? And do you really think the racist attitudes towards African Americans just disappeared? No, it became worse.

I know that thanks but it's been generations at least 4 since there were slaves in the US and my revelatives died for thier freedom I don't see why any one would demand restitution for something that didn't happen to them. It'd be like me going to japan and demanding restitution for a relative being held as a POW

And really the whole struggle of human existance is not living with the hand your delt it's overcoming that hand that makes us human. We all get a pretty raw deal in life (well most of us) but if any man (or woman or anyhing else) works hard and hangs tough they can over come anything. By blaming our past for our now we destroy our future, but if we improve our now regardless of our past our future will shine all the brighter. (Oh that's good someone right that down!)

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I don't see how everyone could be equally responsible for an entire nation of people being forced off their land. Its the natives fault that their land was stolen? I don't think so...

Oh but we are all equally at fault some of the natives for violence and some colonists for returning it(when they didn't initiate it), some colonists for tricking the indian and others for not speaking up about it. When an atrocity happens it means we've all failed

Interestingly enough, scalping was actually introduced by Europeans. Amazing huh?
I don't see how everyone could be equally responsible for an entire nation of people being forced off their land. Its the natives fault that their land was stolen? I don't think so...

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but we can't hold the people of today responsible for the events of yesterday

I never suggested that. My whole argument was against the ignorant Europeans who first came here to form this country.

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like restitution why the hell should I give african americans money because their great-great-great grandparents were slaves? I mean hell my thrice greatgrandparents only died to free them, why don't I get some restitution?

Thats a whole different issue. I don't even want to get into that. And believe me, while at the surface, what you said makes sense...Unfortunately not everything is that simple. If it was, political matters would be much easier to solve. The events that took place hundreds of years ago doesn't just dissipate. Generations of people are still affected by how society was.

What do you think happened? Slaves all of a sudden became free and BOOM everything is just great? Just think about it for a minute...where would you go to live, how would you get a job, education for your family? And do you really think the racist attitudes towards African Americans just disappeared? No, it became worse. Its not just a coincidence that there are so many impoverished black families in our country. We are supposed to be a country of opportunity. To not do anything would be a way to hold the African-American population resonsible for what happened in the past years. They have to work their way up from a position that they were placed into, not by choice. If you think your life is hard, try living in a country where you are "inferior" in almost all aspects of life.

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1. The natives were decieved many times by attempting to "cooperate" through peaceful means. Don't you think that if you were lied to like that you would be a tad angry? I'm not saying that going out and killing people is justified, but to be in their shoes would be pretty damn frustrating. 'Peaceful means doesn't work in our favor, so what else can we do to fight back?'

Well even before things like that happened plenty of natives saw the colonists and looked at each other and said "hey some new scalps tonight" there were cruel, greedy scum on both sides and everyone is equally responsible

but we can't hold the people of today responsible for the events of yesterday, like restitution why the hell should I give african americans money because their great-great-great grandparents were slaves? I mean hell my thrice greatgrandparents only died to free them, why don't I get some restitution?

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That was the puritans many left england to seek their fortunes and what not, not because of oppression

true, I despise those people even more.

And I never said that there were innocents in the conflict. I agree, no one who participates in killing is innocent. But when you break it down very simply:
1. The natives were decieved many times by attempting to "cooperate" through peaceful means. Don't you think that if you were lied to like that you would be a tad angry? I'm not saying that going out and killing people is justified, but to be in their shoes would be pretty damn frustrating. 'Peaceful means doesn't work in our favor, so what else can we do to fight back?'

Ok, then, versus...2. Immigrants. 'We want to start a new life, or make lots of money, or have religious (or other) freedom....Oh no! There are already people living here. Well, since we don't understand them and they look primitive and are also in our way, we will just come up with ways to get rid of them. Lets make some treaties and promises with them and build on their land anyway. Or let's try to convert them to our way of life because their culture is "savage" and then we can feel good about ourselves because we are helping a cause. Or let's kill them because they actually do not want to leave their land and take orders from people that didn't come from here in the first place."

No, there aren't any innocents in a war/conflict. But there are alot of ignorant and greedy people who nearly destroyed an entire race of people. And I don't care if it was 100 years ago, there is no excuse.

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I was refering to the ones who "founded" it. They were hypocrites. They leave their countries because of oppression and yet it seems ok to oppress others.

That was the puritans many left england to seek their fortunes and what not, not because of oppression

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And what happened to the Native Americans wasn't sad. It was sick and wrong. They were defending their way of life and their culture, which was being threatened

and that's not sad? and the colonists had their way of life threatned by the natives it was a cycle of hate and wrong doind by both sides, there are no innocents in that conflict

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Life is perspective from a certain point of view hitler was a hero. We all see the world from our unique view point

Exactly...so why don't you take your own advice. Don't call people morons just because they have a different and unique perspective.

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Uh yeah duh that's just the way the world worked at that point and then we cleaned up and fought a goddamn war to preserve the union and free the slaves and by hell if women don't have rights now what's all the noise I'm hearing about "sufferage" in my goverment class?

I'm not talking about our country as it is now. I was refering to the ones who "founded" it. They were hypocrites. They leave their countries because of oppression and yet it seems ok to oppress others.

And what happened to the Native Americans wasn't sad. It was sick and wrong. They were defending their way of life and their culture, which was being threatened (no, not by every single person, but by the majority) I think their reason for fighting is a little bit more justified than those who just wanted to take their land.

It is related to the war in Iraq because of the attitudes towards it. Many people see our government as coming in and taking over. The Europeans came over here and took over. I was refering to a comment that said all people believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, therefore they go and try to convince the "wrong" what is "right". There are quite a few people who believe setting up a democracy in Iraq is an example of this. Which is debatable, but its just odd that others do not see the wrong in what took place to form America. Maybe its because the government endorsed history textbooks leave much of this real history out. Its pretty ironic actually.

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your "perspectives" amuse me to no end...

Life is perspective from a certain point of view hitler was a hero. We all see the world from our unique view point

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Do I even need to get started on the fact that there was slavery? or that women were still denied of rights?

Uh yeah duh that's just the way the world worked at that point and then we cleaned up and fought a goddamn war to preserve the union and free the slaves and by hell if women don't have rights now what's all the noise I'm hearing about "sufferage" in my goverment class?

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When you start putting yourself in other people's shoes and begin questioning what is put in front of you,

I do that all the time thanks I've read several historys on the founding of the US and the expansion west-ward from both perspectives and I have come to the conclusion that while what happened to the Native Americans was sad it all falls to Darwin again "you fight and win or you die."

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Especially when there is so much opposition to the war in Iraq. How many times do I hear people say "We are pushing our governmental beliefs on their country." "What if they don't want a democracy?"

Now how in hell is that related miss? The war in Iraq was to liberate a people from a murdering tyrant not to take their land away from them and expand the borders of the infant united states. There is no relation what so ever.

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I don't see these people as heroes.

which people are you speaking of here? Cause you seem to be seeing the natives with rose colored glasses. Both sides did some detestable things or maybe you missed the part of the books the talked about the rapes and scalpings and burning people at the stake. (yeah the puritans wern't the only ones) So in response to these attacks by certain tribes we shot the hell out of them. Some tirbes met the settlers with open arms and some corn but a lot more met them with bow strings drawn. There are no good guys in that situation

ok, where do i start here?

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He simply said that we live by a survival of the fittest attitude, which we do, and the Native Americans "lost." The Europeans gave them diseases, violence, and slaughter. But of course, most major countries don't develop in a flurry of rainbows and bunny rabbits.

By "we", who exactly do you mean? Are you speaking for everyone...b/c I sure as hell don't live by that attitude, and its hard to define the attitudes of people from over a hundred years ago. And my point anyway is that I despise these people for what they did. I don't give a *&^% why it happened. I already know that. I'm giving my (not so popular) perspective from the Native American side. I don't see these people as heroes. They tried to destroy an entire culture of people, and pretty much suceeded. No, most countries don't develop in a flurry of rainbows, but that doesn't make it right.

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See that's just wrong. The founding fathers used a similar moral compass to shape this nation, and even allowed for all religions to be practiced. Their personal beliefs barely factored in. They all checked and balanced each other.

No, its not wrong. They came to America to escape religious persecution. And through many years, tried to assimilate the Native Americans (many times through force). No offense, but what you said there sounded to me like a flurry of rainbows and bunny rabbits.

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This country was founded on the idea of freedom and equality. The definitions and ideas that surround those things have changed in the last 200+ years.

Yes, i agree. The definition of freedom and equality now includes other people that these European "conquerors" oppressed. It was founded on the idea of freedom and equality. But when you look at history and what actually took place, then you come to understand what exactly their idea of freedom and equality really was.

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It's been the same way since the begining of time. All people believe they're right and everyone else is wrong. They then go and try to convince the "wrong" to convert to being "right". If that doesnt work then they kill them. (if you don't belive me, look at almost any war that has ever happened)

Again, I already know this. Kind of my point actually.

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It has always been that way and most likley always will be that way. Sooner or later you'll have to get over it.

I hate to sound like such a pessimest(sp?) but thats how it is.

I'm sorry, but I don't have to get over it. I don't think its right and I really find it sad that people would just sit back and accept that kind of attitude. Especially when there is so much opposition to the war in Iraq. How many times do I hear people say "We are pushing our governmental beliefs on their country." "What if they don't want a democracy?" But I bring up something similar and now people are making up lame excuses like survival of the fittest. Is our world really that primitive? (don't answer that question)

So, what are we going to do? When someone walks around a corner and kills another person, are we going to throw our hands up in the air and say "Oh well, people have been murdering since the beginning of time, so get over it!" I hate to sound like an optimist here, but I'd like to think that mankind would be able to make some steps forward and learn from their mistakes. Or maybe everone's too lazy to do that?