I never said that the methods were painless, and after reading the majority of the information on the site in question, I still hold that on the whole, the industry is effeicient. Some of the deaths may not be quick, But it really shouldn'y matter, because they are animals. You say they are sentient, but offer no proof.
quote: Yes, a rat can speak. it just so happens that not everything in this world does not speak english, or german, etc.
There's a difference between uncounsious communication and language.
quote:they do express feelings. for example, if a horse feels threatened, it will express its emotions by laying its ears back. (i apoligize, i would of used a rat for an example, but i dont know exactly how they would react. but u get the point.)
Again, that is not "expression". It is an unconsious reflex. Human recoil or change thier posture when they feel threatened, and we don't think about doing it. We just do it. It's the harwiring in our brains, caused by the primitive and unconcious parts of our minds.
quote: and as for the computer, rats as well as other animals are not equipped with thunbs and fingers, which may hinder the process of building anything.
If they had the intelligence to do so, then maybe it would hinder them. But it wouldn't stop them. Animals can still manipulate objects, they just can't build things because they don't have the IQ.
quote: However, at this point it is not necessary, and it is vital that people realize that any killing or using of animal products is NOT necessary.
Nessecity has never really been at question. It's ease and practicality.
quote: Genocide is a mass killing for a certain reason, and Xenocide is the total irradication of a species for a certain reason)
Genocide: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
Xenocide: Isn't recognised by the dictionaries I checked. However, Xeno means "stranger" or "forgeiner" ie. xenophobia. So I would think that it would have little to do with species, simply the killing of something forgien.
Neither of these things has anything to do with the issue at hand.
quote: Strglove; i don't see the lion story at all being the same as the human story. Lion has a right to life. he must eat. the prey has a right to life. he can run (and often succedds). he to must eat though. grass hopper has........... it's all interconnected.
lions, although social creatures, don't GROW or HUNT food to sell to other lions and then kill off all the cheetahs, panthers, leopards and human competition that could interupt thier massive population boom. it's in no ones interest but the lions. that would seem like a similar story.
Then the point was missed. What I was saying in using that analogy was that the human reaction is natural, and that if animals had the level of intelligence and were counsious like we where, they wouldn't act that differently.
quote: Con***ious said (or maybe it was the dali lama, who will be burning in hell right next to gandhi)that you can tell so much about a culture by the way they treat their animals....... i'll try and findthe exact source, but it's along those lines.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive the quote you're reffering to states aproxximately this: "A lot can be learned about a culture/civilization by the way they treat the most hated memebers of thier society." It had nothing to do with animals.
As a final note, I never said that the slaughterhouses were perfect, and I never beleived that they were. The pictures are not that disturbing. I've seen much, much worse. Maybe this is part of the reason that my veiws differ from yours. This is the problem with ethical debate. A person's ethics are really determined not by their will, but by thier experiance. Because after all, the ideas and voluntary thought are based on experiance. In the end I feel this discussion will fall into the realm of pure opinion.
i agree with you for the most part. we are not exactly bloodthirsty, but we abuse the fact that we have a i higher level of intelleigence. and i would like to give this perticular situation to all of you who shun animal rights: what if animals took over the world? if they ruled everything? and maybe they decided "Well, those pesky humans! Lets put them to work!" And they did. We would pull plows for their feilds, and pull their carriots, carelessly slaughter us, and even be used to test medicines. Think of how you would feel. would u say that jsut because you were bred and born in a test lab, means you have every right to die? ahhh, no. Anyway, what im trying to get at, is the fact that if anything, we have been abusing animals and we owe them. we owe them for pulling our plows and carriots, carelessly slaughtering them, using them for medicine tests. and most of all, we owe them for stealing their freedom. harmony, people, harmony. we are one with nature because we are nature
i find that a shared moment with nature (woods, montains, oceans, stars,trees, animals, people) is spiritually fulfilling (sorry to bring religion into it).
animal testing has already been heavily debated (WHO WOULDN'T CHOOSE THEIR OWN LIFE OVER A RAT) like that altematem would ever occur in your life.
Industrial farming brings animal rights into real inquiry. Fwgn- i salute you on the remarkable source.......... to say that an animal is killed efficiently and painlesslly is bullocks (refer to below web site.) it would be awsome to pirate those images in place of a superbowl commercial........ the whole country would vomit.
Con***ious said (or maybe it was the dali lama, who will be burning in hell right next to gandhi)that you can tell so much about a culture by the way they treat their animals....... i'll try and findthe exact source, but it's along those lines.
quote:I really don't care whether the animals are perfectly comfortable when they die. If a few are squirm around before they expire, it's no sweat off my back. It's done quickly and effeciently, this is capitalism after all. The butchers aren't animal sadists, they don't torture animals for thrill.
Actually, I think you'd be suprised at how ineffecient slaughterhouses are. If you're open to it, I suggest picking up a copy of a really famous pamphlet called "Why Vegan" or checking out www.factoryfarming.com (gruesome pictures and a manipulative tone, but lots of information).
Xavi, I find it upsetting, sickening, repulsing, nausiating, and out and out unhuman to brand the ones who belive in the true survival of this planet as, and I quote, 'powerhungry b@stards'. Everyone has their own opinions, but you take the cake, my friend. The terms 'Genocide and Xenocide' are not always negative terms. These animals MUST be tested to find a cure for life-threatening diseases on this earth. Can't you people understand?
I hate humanity in general. We are the most powerhungry b@stards on earth. Why? Because we have a brain.
Given, taht could be a good thing. Problem is that we happen to abuse this privilage.
Have you ever heared of a species committing Genocide/Xenocide? (For any y'all that dont know, Genocide is a mass killing for a certain reason, and Xenocide is the total irradication of a species for a certain reason)
no? I didn't think so.
now, Homicide, I can see ANY species on this planet commiting that. tah cannot be stopped.
I give to you a scenario. Let's say that, however unrealistic this may sound, that you've contracted a very, very, very rare virus and the only cure is by drinking every last drop of blood from a rat's body. Would you sacrifice your own life to save that of a pathetic lab rat? If you answer 'yes', I suggest you find yourself a good psychiatrist. As ItalianStallion mentioned, these animals are bred to be destroyed. It will be a cold day in Hell when the corpse of every last rat, hamster, and every other vermin used in testing will be gone from the earth. All of you are 'Anti-Italians', right? Well, so many of your precious rodends have given their lives to scientific research, I think you owe it to them to finish the projects they died for. Besides, if you care more about the trillions of test animals dying every year than the trillions dying from the diseases they are being used to find a cure for, you are absurd. I'm prepared to back this belief up should any of you disagree.
Atheist B@stards? I got a few choice words for you... all of which have four letters.
I take pride in the fact that I am WICCAN, you over repressive b@stard. Given, the Big Bang is rather improbable, but show me some evidence of Creation, and I can shoot it down outta the sky. I find that Christianity in general contradicts it self, but I wont dwell on that too long, because this is the wrong board.
It is crucial that humans, as a race, come to recognize the inherent value in ALL sentient beings, including our own species, before we can truly be in harmony with the world. Killing animals for any reason, including food and dissection, is cruel and inhumane. Obviously, if there were circumstances that made it absolutely essential to human survival to kill animals, that would be a different matter, one upon which I will not comment. However, at this point it is not necessary, and it is vital that people realize that any killing or using of animal products is NOT necessary.
I weep for YOU. How else could the universe could have been created? The Big Bang? Everything out of nothing...hmmm...That's like a tornado going through a junkyard and putting together a '69 Mustang. Like it says in the Bible, we have to walk by faith, not by the word of man. There is EVIDENCE that there is a god, yet you Atheist b@stards continue to deny it because you are too stubborn. I pity the person who denies God and suffers an eternal hell.
quote:To think that I am on the same level as a rat is absurd. Can a rat speak (not the garbled sqeaks mind you)? Can a rat build a computer? Can a rat out run me? Can a rat think and express it's thoughts? The obvious answer is no and therefore they should not be put on the same level as humans.
Yes, a rat can speak. it just so happens that not everything in this world does not speak english, or german, etc. and on that same note, they do express feelings. for example, if a horse feels threatened, it will express its emotions by laying its ears back. (i apoligize, i would of used a rat for an example, but i dont know exactly how they would react. but u get the point.) I mean no disrespect, but i doubt u could out run a rat-they are fairly fast. and as for the computer, rats as well as other animals are not equipped with thunbs and fingers, which may hinder the process of building anything. Mind you that just because we have thumbs and fingers and that we do not comunicate the same, does not make us better. But, in some ways u are right about not being on the same level as a rat: we are smarter then them; in some things.
I so agree! It makes me really sad when the law makes it harder to protect the children then the animal. I also think that its sad when the rights of animals or for that matter, plants, interfear with the livelihood of people.
I understand what you are saying, but what will become of our world if nobody cares? There may be more important things to worry about now, but what happens if it becomes too late because everyone is worrying about something else?
It was said by somebody that animal rights is not the most important issue to worry about. Personally, I believe animal rights is as important an issue as any other. Animals cannot stand up for themselves and therefore people should push for what is right and see that all animals get the treatment they deserve by any means possible. They are living beings and they deserve to live without suffering as much as is possible. Little things like donating money to animal rights groups to help make sure animals in pounds have food, supporting animal shelters that don't kill animals and helping get laws passed for stricter regulation of slaughter houses to make sure that even the animals that have to die are unconcious before the processing begins and therefore die as painlessly as possible. Maybe animal rights isn't an important issue to some, but in my view, it seems one of the easier ones to ammend.
ANIMALS ARE JUST LIKE PEOPLE BUT FORMED DIFFERENT. YES, THERE ARE OTHER THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT BUT IF YOU CAN HELP IT IN YOUR LINE OF TASKS PLEASE DO SO.
quote: The way we slaughter animals today, besides being cruel and unnecessary, is dangerous and damaging to much more than the animals.
One- I really don't care whether the animals are perfectly comfortable when they die. If a few are squirm around before they expire, it's no sweat off my back. It's done quickly and effeciently, this is capitalism after all. The butchers aren't animal sadists, they don't torture animals for thrill.
Two- No conclusive evidence has been found to show that growth hormones or any other chemicals used on lie stock are dangerous. Just because it may be unpronouncable to you doesn't mean it's bad.
quote: because it's healthier to avoid animal products, including milk (the human body isn't made to accept it, it actually considers it foriegn)
It's healthier to eat animal products in moderation, not cut them out completely. And that little phrase "the human body actually considers it forgien" is a half truth. Yes, it considers it forgein, a forgein substance that is food. Only people with lactose intolerance have problems digesting milk. If you say that it's difficult to digest, then realize that celery is also.
quote: because it isn't a matter of survival anymore- especially here in america where everything is in excess.. we hunt, we eat and we produce more than we'll ever need simply because we can. Look, simple is best.
So we should all convert to a yeast based diet supplemented by multi-vitamins? Because that's as simple as it gets. No, of course not, that's absurd, we've got to have variety right? The same logic applies to animal products. I eat it because it is both nutritious and good tasting.
quote: Human beings can survive without the mass production and mass torture of defenseless animals.
It's not torture and I don't give a **** if thier defenseless.
quote: And as far as ItalianStallion's ideas on the levels of rats and humans. You didnt give yourself those abilities, Stallion, they were given to you to be appreciated.
And we're apreciating these abilities by putting them to good use. Ie. making our lives better and different.
quote: Animals were put here to do what they do as well, they have no choice about their ability to talk or function
And this is why we can kill and eat them. Doing so in moderation isn't a problem. So far we've actually improved our circumstances and practices. You're probably familiar with Upton Sinclair's little work on the turn-of-the-century meat packing industry. We've advanced a long way past that. It's still not pretty, but it's a lot better.
quote: but they deserve respect as a living creature.
Respect as a living creature is a variable thing. All things are not equal, and respect does not mean we can't do what we are doing.
quote: Don't act like you earned the privilege of being human, it was given to you, the most you can do is make the best of it for your kind and those "below" you.
First, it's not a privilege, it can't be taken away (at least according to science and/or monotheistic religion). And the idea that those in power (humans) shold devote all thier wealth and power to the lower species is a shaky and unrealistic ethos.
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