why dont u veggitarians just give it up and be quiet! u are not going to stop most of the world from eating some food. Other animals would kill and eat us if and when they have a chance. I am so sick of that. Do yourselves a favor and go to mcdonalds and get a hamburger. And dont worry you have a lot of time to make up your mind, mcdonalds and other meat places arent going anywhere.

The "animal" issue doesn't affect animals alone. Look at what VeganQueen had to say, and that's just PART of the information. The way we slaughter animals today, besides being cruel and unnecessary, is dangerous and damaging to much more than the animals. Not just red meat and chickens, either. Even fish that are raised to be your food are pumped full of so many antibiotics that it's actually been proven that it can cause human fish eaters to become immune to those antibiotics. I'm a vegan, not because I think that meat is murder, that carnivores should be mauled or any other so called extremist reasoning,but simply because the way the we kill animals today is cruel and unusual, because meat products contain more un-pronouncable chemicals and ingredients than any lab-made-alternatives these days, because it's healthier to avoid animal products, including milk (the human body isn't made to accept it, it actually considers it foriegn) and because it isn't a matter of survival anymore- especially here in america where everything is in excess.. we hunt, we eat and we produce more than we'll ever need simply because we can. Look, simple is best. The animals shouldn't be put thru all this and neither should your body. Human beings can survive without the mass production and mass torture of defenseless animals. And as far as ItalianStallion's ideas on the levels of rats and humans. You didnt give yourself those abilities, Stallion, they were given to you to be appreciated. Animals were put here to do what they do as well, they have no choice about their ability to talk or function, but they deserve respect as a living creature. Don't act like you earned the privilege of being human, it was given to you, the most you can do is make the best of it for your kind and those "below" you.

Brucelee: You're replies have been fairly immature on this forum, therefore I will waste no more of my time trying to convince you of the benefits of hunting and testing, for you will never understand the undeniable fact that humans are more important than animals. Hunting for sport is fine. It's a legal pastime and there are strict rules to keep nature in balance. In fact, hunting for sport can be very beneficial if the population of any species grows to large to control. Hunting can be induced to control the animal population so that these animals do not overpopulate their own lands and invade ours, where they could be hit by a car or cause property and physical damage.

There is an explaination for hunting for sport. It's just as good as playing football. (You've gotta get the pigskin from somewhere). And about the "animal testing destroying the world," that was merely a sarcastic remark. Ease up.

fwegan, an omnivourous diet is more natural than a herborous one, for a complete diet will consist of all necessary vitamins and minerals, where as a vegan one is doing away with certain foods which provide ample supplies of these vitamins such as B12 and D. Read my eariler post to Veganqueen for some more complete research.

Kalashini, it is sad to think that you would put a lowly rat to the same level as you, myself, anyone in here, and anyone human being on the face of the earth. To think that I am on the same level as a rat is absurd. Can a rat speak (not the garbled sqeaks mind you)? Can a rat build a computer? Can a rat out run me? Can a rat think and express it's thoughts? The obvious answer is no and therefore they should not be put on the same level as humans.

As for the rest of you, listen to the wisdom of DrStrangelove for he knows what he's talking about and has good evidence to back up his claims.

Furthermore, I'd like to become a member of PETA, sounds like a good organization. Maybe we can take on GreenPeace.

I agree with you in so much as this being a matter of ethics. Once slavery (multiple cultures) was considered the norm and socially acceptable "natural" existence for OTHER humans. due to higher principal and moral ethics we at least believe in a better world.

in 150 years from now we'll look back and barelly remember the time we mass produced industrial farms to turn a profit. it will be taboo.
but it IS a moral question ;;;;;and ethics DO tell alot about a society and a PERSON ; thier attitude and the way they live their life.

what does our current way say?????????

knitinshngarmr; how can you really think that god- if there is one; created this WHOLE entire universe............ for man.
not for any other of his creations (universily speaking), but for man alone.......... and then he let US decide what to do with it all............ (no wonder he kicked us out of eden).

Strglove; i don't see the lion story at all being the same as the human story. Lion has a right to life. he must eat. the prey has a right to life. he can run (and often succedds). he to must eat though. grass hopper has........... it's all interconnected.

lions, although social creatures, don't GROW or HUNT food to sell to other lions and then kill off all the cheetahs, panthers, leopards and human competition that could interupt thier massive population boom. it's in no ones interest but the lions. that would seem like a similar story.

I once have thought about going a vegan life, but I looked toward God's word to help me out. God put animals on Earth SO WE COULD USE THEM, not so WE, the ones he made them for, could kiss their ***** and bow to them. I think it is only right that they die quickly, but quite frankly I don't care how bad it looks. If it's testing animals, that's even better. It could one day save both you and I.

As there are more important things to worry about, somtimes animals are the important things to worry about...they are just like us in so many ways, and they need just as much attention that we do, they need food to live, they need exercise to be healthy. As hopefully a future vet id like to point out that animals are just as important as us and often overlooked.

of course we have other things to worry about but if we abuse animals then we won't have much to worry about later other than that right?

The question wasn't what gave the rat a right to life, it was what made a rat equal to a human.

All things don't have a right to life, that's an opinon. As is your opinion that everything is entitled to one. The lion doesn't care whether it's prey has a right to life because it't not concious and can't grasp the concept of ethics. The reason the animal doesn't take any more than it needs is because it doesn't think. We do this because it gives us pleasure or satsifaction.

Some of us would like to think if the lion was elevated to our level of intelligence and technological advancement it would behave nobly and follow a certain code of selfless ethics. But the reality is that the lion would probably behave just like we do. In fact any animal would. Because in the end humans, apes, lions, wolves, and birds are all driven by the same insticts. Humans have evolved and developed to a point where if we didn't have our self created ethics to hold us back we'd have caused massive amounts of damage to the environment, even more than has been done.

That said, ethics should also incorporate the primitive instincts in order to find a happy balance. I believe that we're higher than other animals for reasons already described. If you grant the tools of higher intelligence and consciousness to any other speices, you still have the same basic mindset and then they'll be equal to humans. That is the only time they'll have a right to life that is equal to ours. I'm not for waton slaughter, but I'm not for prohibition of slaughter either.

dr strangelove, earlier on you asked why a rat should have the same right to life as a human.
they should have the same right to life cuz the are LIVING THINGS.
All living things have a right to life.
People seem to think that humans are better than all other life forms- but we aren't.
we need to have a little more respect

animal rights are good. as for when people like italianStallion animals dont kill off each other in mass quantities, then after they are done with what they need throw it all away, they take what they need and they eat it all. they dont just run up to a cow kill it eat a bute then chuck in the garbage like humans.

And one more thing, Explain why materialism makes us lesser creatures. I've never seen it as such.

VeganQueen: To tackle the envionmental part of our post first, there are two pertinent definitions of exploit

One- To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.

Two-To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor.

The first is what I meant, the second is not.

And as further proof of my conservationist stance, please read my posts in "conserving our planet for future generations" in the Global Issues forum. I've brought it back up to the top at the time of this posting.

Now on to the ****roaches...
Success rate is a combination of environmental circumstance as well as species competition.
If you pitted humanity against the ****roaches, the humans would eventually win. Simple reason is that the ****roaches are static, and humans are constantly evolving not through genetics but through innovation.

Humans are not better because of our physiology, indeed we are a reletively weak speicies in that respect. However, our ability to innovate, create, build, write, educate, explore, expand, destroy, and kill puts us well above the rest of the species.

****roaches may be able to survive say, and asteroid impact better than humans. But we could prevent that disaster from happening all together. We are the first species that can decide to leave this planet and colonize others, further expanding our survivability. We can survive extreme conditions by virtue of our intelligence.

No other species can compare. This is what makes us better.

...Are very important, animals cannot protect them-selves so its up yo us to do it!

To understand your standpoint, I'd like you to differentiate between a species being "better" than another, and a species' "success rate". You define 'success rate' as proliferation and being able to survive(withstanding harsh climates over a long period of time, I suppose). If that's the case, then ****roaches are the most successful beings. They've been around since prehistoric times, they've survived what ever force that annihilated the other prehistoric animals. Scientists even believe that they'd be able to withstand a nuclear attack( something that we humans surely couldn't survive. They're is a plethora of ****roaches in the world. About 1 trillion at least. I doubt that you agree, with that, so I'd like you to express your contention more clearly.
Regarding your proudly proclaimed statement, "we can exploit and manipulate the physical world". I beg to differ that using our natural resources to to the limits, without regards to the long term environmental and ecological effects of us doing so (aka exploiting), is an action that makes us humans "better" than others. In fact, our incapability and refusal to control our ecologically destructive desires and conveniences, hinders us from ensuring an environment conducive to the continuance of our species. Therefore, this makes us mere materialistic driven "lesser creatures".

I don't think anything has a right not to be eaten, humans included. I'm vegan, but it really is perfectly natural for people to eat meat. A meat-based diet is arguably unnatural, but that's another topic.

I think animal rights are the right to not be exploited for entertainment, or testing, the right to be treated humanely, even in a slaughterhouse, and just general respect.


Love, Jenny

Animals should not receive the right to not be eaten. Afterall, they created a WHOLE organization based upon eating animals...right?

People Eating Tasty Animals. PETA.

I' agree with you regarding the fact that some scientific studies are tainted by certain interests. However, I'm not aware of any interests that The American Dietic Association has, besides promoting healthy living.

sorry; i went camping for a few(and managed to kill nothing/ though we almost hit a deer). but i apparantly missed quite a bit......

itln and strglv; the topic is animal rights. that is the recognition (or lack thereof) of the right of a living creature to exist. animal testing and deforestation and Factory farming are relevant subtopics and so they TO have significance in this discussion; thats part of the problem....... cause and effect isn't just some abstraction you know.

nextly strg lve, i too have killed a goose. we shot at it and broke it's neck, which left it in the creek with its head under the water and flopping on the shore...... i'll never cause another living creature pain and suffering ever again. i'd hate for someone to hurt me like that.

How can you people deny that we ARE animals?!?!?! you make it out to sound like we're NOT breathing, eating, F***ing, and all around biological carbon based life forms like most on this planet; but devine creatures who have more of a purpose than anything else alive!!!! survival. yeppp. thats it.( excessively surviving).

Vegan has brought up so many significant points; with the right supplements a vegan diet is extremely healthy, that thing about the USDA was tight; and about meat.......

cows and pigs are highly concentrated in saturated fats, which clog up hearts and lead to high blood pressure, obesity (look around at high meat consumption in the states.... no wonder we're the fattest) and eventually heart attacks. yep. pretty healthy alright, so chomp away you pittiless gluttons.

Animal rights are when people think that we shouldnt herd and kill animals cuz they cant talk

frankly i dont give dang about animal rights