why anyone thinks homosexuality is a born-with attribute. There is a signifigant and rather obvious physical difference between Male amd Female. Howosexuals are either born Male or Female- there is no physical difference between a homosexual and a heterosexual. Science gives no basis for a third sex.

You know, I hate this topic but I can't keep my two cents to myself lol. Did you people choose to be heterosexual? Did you really wake up one day and decide that or is that how you've always been? I personally didn't choose, cuz if I had the choice I'd much rather be attracted to women. But I like men...why would it be any different for homosexuals? All this talk about sin and hell and blah blah blah is b.s. We ALL sin (if you want to go by the bible). Lying, cheating, stealing, envy, eating too much, drinking too much, fighting with your parents...ALL SINS ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE! Like the wise person said before me, judge not lest ye be judged.

Hey buddy you like the bible and you keep refering to it in almost all you post about everything well,
Sallow this,

Matthew 7:1-5

JUDGE not that ye be judges. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou HYPOCRITE, 1st cast out the beam of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother

Translated version:
Do not judge or you to will be judged. For the same way judge others you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured on you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in you brothers eye, and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye. How can you say to your borther let me take the speck out you eye when all the time there is a plank in you own eye. You hypocrite 1st take the plank out of you own eye and then you wil see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye.

In others words:
he who is without sin cast the 1st stone.
I know your not perfect so what gives you the right to judge others. All sins in gods eyes are the same. So don't make it seem like you some perfect christain cause no one is.

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And has anyone even BEGUN to question why homosexuality is AGAINST THE LAW in some states?

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Did you ever stop to think that the people who made these laws were people like you joey? Thats's why they're there. Because different people belive diffrerent things and want to change things to be their way. You do it, I do it, everyone does- that's why we're having this discussion in the first place. To have others see it our way. Some people go to the extremes of forcing people to behave certain ways because of beliefs. This is why My state (MN) is in danger of having laws passed which will make abortion illegal. (Which completely aggrivates me by the way, I beleive women should have the right to choose about what goes on in their bodies and their lives, but i won't go to far into that issue here) When the majority of people believe something and hold power, in the US, they have the right to attempt to make laws that contibute to their beliefs.

I do not think it is right that Homosexuality should be considered wrong, a sin, or unlawful period. It is not a choice, it is not even the buisness of those who aren't in the relationship in the first place! Who cares! I mean goodness joey, why does it bother you so much? Are you trying to save their souls? As long as you get to heaven, who cares about everyone else?! (I'm being sarcastic by the way, I'm sure you don't really believe that)


My uncle is Gay and has a partner, my mother's best friend is a lesbian and has a partner and 2 children, my very close friend's Godfather was murdered for the simple reason that he was gay. So you see, I know what these people go through, i know they can't help who they are, I know what wonderful people/parents they can be. I do NOT know however, WHY people try to keep them from living life the way the want to naturally, just on a basis of who they love. I think it's sick. It would be like me forcing someone to have sex with a dog because I found it immoral for them to be attracted to fellow humans.

Now do you see why being against those that are Gay seems so ridiculous to me?

What is the point?

~Becca

I hear what you're saying Norrow. Homosexuality isn't a sin except in the bible (and when reading a source of information you should assess how reliable it is, ie. who exactly wrote it, for what purpose and audience was it written, in what time was it written and is it biased? This is true even for holy books!) and seeing as I'm not religious, I don't any reason for thinking it's a sin. It hurts nobody, at least, no more than heterosexual love. Also, I notice that whenever people talk about homosexuality they talk about the sexual side of it, the lusting after someone of the opposite sex. It's like it's all based on sexual desires, they never seem to mention that it's about actual love as well. Gay people LOVE each other, just the same as straight people. And I don't see why there's this great opposition to letting them have that. People will be gay, what you think or say isn't going to change their minds so you might as well sit back, relax and get used to the idea.

I would like us to keep the Bible out of this and just focus on why homosexuality is somehow a sin. (Not that I think it is.)

Adultery is a sin because it ruins a person emotionally and mentally and causes spouses to believe that they have not been good humans, and destroys the spouses faith in humankind.

Murder is a sin because it removes a person from this world, prevents him or her from ever seeing it or changing it in a meaningful way, and emotionally scars the aquaintances, friends and loved ones of the victim.

Child molestation is a sin because it violates and emotionally scars a child for life.

In each of these three cases of actions that I, the Bible and many, many other people believe to be sins, there is a victim. Who is the "victim" of homosexuality?

I hope that it's being a littler clearer why I mentioned God in the topic. I figured that if I didn't, a lot of people would be writing that Jesus is the "victim" of homosexuality.

Who is the victim?

First of all, don't pray for me. If I wanted someone to pray for me, I would have asked. Thanks anyway.

Second, my post was meant to be sarcastic- you didn't say all rapists were rapists, but you hinted they can;t be trusted, or at least shouldn't be able to get married, adopt and so on. Why not? What makes them bad parents?

Also my viewpoint of the bible isn't twisted. I don't believe in everything I said, it was just some theories people have, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't. I just don't think that everything in the bible should be believed just because it's the BIBLE. I mean, it's a book that was written thousands of years ago by some people who heard about someone who saw god in their dreams.

Anhd there's no such thing as anti-morals, really, because everyone's morals are different and affected by society.

Fetch, I'm going to pray for you because you have obviously learned a sick and twisted viewpoint of the Bible and have made it a priority in showing complete disregard for the true Gospel.

I do not hang out with my friend because of his lifestyle. You can be friends with someone without hanging out with them (I'm no longer in high school by the way, but this friend didn't even go to my school; he's about six years older than me).

And fetch, you have totally distorted my answers with your liberal, anti-moral opinions; I did not say homosexuals were rapists, nor did I say straight parents DON'T abuse kids...

You make assumptions out of my answers to make it fit your liberal viewpoint and I resent that.



And has anyone even BEGUN to question why homosexuality is AGAINST THE LAW in some states?

Not only is it a moral sin, but in some states, sodomy is against the law. In some states, same-sex marriages aren't recognized and in other states, you can't adopt children if you're gay.


So not only is it a moral sin, but it's against THE LAW.

Being gay isn't the only component to a person. It's only part of it. I personally would hate it if I was simply identified as "straight." There is so much more to a person than their sexual orientation.
I also don't believe homsexuality is a choice. No one wakes up one day and says, "Hey, I think I'm gonna be gay today!" Who does that about being heterosexual anyway? Who you're attrated to is not a choice. It's just something that happens within that you can't control.
I think 10% of the population is straight. And another 10% is gay. The rest of us (That's 80%) are in that fuzzy gray area. A friend of mine once said, "I'm straight so far, but who's to say I won't fall in love with a woman next month?" I think that's true. You could think you're heterosexual, but someday you could meet someone of the same sex and realize that you're attracted to them. Life is a great big surprise, and if anyone thinks they have all the answers, I'd bet that they're wrong.
Btw, I just had to brag a little: I live in Vermont, we have civil unions, and I think it's grand.

Solve your religious squabbles in the other topics. What I'm trying to ask is, why is homosexuality a sin?

Is it a sin just because it is a sin?

Is it a sin because it is unusual, different from the majority?

Is it a sin because you believe that homosexuals are all child molesters?

Or is it not a sin at all, which I will continue to believe until someone proves me otherwise?

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There WERE homosexuals in Biblical times; I have not disputed that.

(the word 'Sodomy' comes from Sodom, a Biblical city known for homosexual activity)

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I'm not talking about Sodom. Obviosuly that's the "bad" part of it. But David was considered the only "true" king, and yet his relastionship with Jonathan wasn't innocent.

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I'm not "homophobic" either. I do have a friend that is gay; I don't hang out with him and he knows how I feel about it, but I am not a homophobe.

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He's your friend but you don't hang out with him? do you even say hello to him in school when people won't see you together?

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I just don't like the fact that same-sex unions can be recognized, gays are allowed to adopt, and gays can be eligible for money for being fired or not hired based on their sexual orientation.

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Because obviously homosexuals are rapists and crappy parents, and no straight people would abuse their children.

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That's not being homophobic.

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no, not at all.

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And the friends who consider themselves Christians while at the same time believing in evolution are NOT Christians - according to the Bible.

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According to the way you interpet the bible.

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If God had planned for evolution, He would have told us.

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Maybe he did and you didn't listen right? Or maybe it slipped his mind.

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And I DO believe homosexuals can be changed from their ways; I met a guy at the Billy Graham crusade three weeks ago who told me his entire testimony of how God got to him one night!

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That person was either in denial, or was never really gay.

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There are ways to break away from sin, including homosexuality.

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Like forcing yourself to marry someone you're not attracted to. Fun.

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As far as the whole thing about Ruth and Naomi goes, I'm not going to comment on that because, like many of you, you don't know much about it

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Really? I don't? Funny, because I thought I studied it at school, and I don't seem to recall flunking.

so we went from homosexuality to discussing God. okay question- if Jesus Christ was just some guy from 2000 years ago who lived, died and did all that, then why are we discussing him wif such passion today??? tell me that!

Cos it strikes ppl in their heart, and they feel the need to deny God and Jesus Christ. every single eprson in this earth feels the need to worship someone. this is why we worship football stars anmd rock singers.

Simply, we are trying to deny God cos He wants to make us live by His standards- which today are seen as too hard, we give up simply cos Hisd way is moral!

So accept that if we are still discussing Him 2000 years later, still trying to create and deny His existance, there must be something within your soul which tells you the truth, He is alive!

As for homosexuality- it is considered a sin, and it is a moral chice ppl make to be that way.

hehe kat!

There WERE homosexuals in Biblical times; I have not disputed that.

(the word 'Sodomy' comes from Sodom, a Biblical city known for homosexual activity)

I'm not "homophobic" either. I do have a friend that is gay; I don't hang out with him and he knows how I feel about it, but I am not a homophobe.

I just don't like the fact that same-sex unions can be recognized, gays are allowed to adopt, and gays can be eligible for money for being fired or not hired based on their sexual orientation.


That's not being homophobic.


And the friends who consider themselves Christians while at the same time believing in evolution are NOT Christians - according to the Bible.

If God had planned for evolution, He would have told us.



And I DO believe homosexuals can be changed from their ways; I met a guy at the Billy Graham crusade three weeks ago who told me his entire testimony of how God got to him one night!

There are ways to break away from sin, including homosexuality.

As far as the whole thing about Ruth and Naomi goes, I'm not going to comment on that because, like many of you, you don't know much about it.

It amazes me that everybody knows everything; if they knew anything at all like they claim, they would know there is a GOD and that that GOD forgives, loves and comforts us!

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Okay, so then what am I supposed to believe? The Bible states those things, and I believe them.

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I'm not going to tell you what to believe. Obviously, I can't force you to believe anything. But there are tons of choices in what to believe. You can believe that there were gay people in the bible, or you can chose not to believe it. (But really, how much does David love Jonathan more than women? i mean, he killed a girl's husband because he lusted after her. Obviously he loved women. He had 1,000 according to the bible. and ten the "friendship" and "loyality" between Ruth and Naomi. It's said to be the most romantic book in the bible. But between who?). You can believe that homosexuality is a sexual oriention and that it can't be helped. That there's nothing wrong with it. That the bible was written thousands of years ago and not every fact in it is correct (sperm is a terrible thing to waste? Because it RUNS OUT? And you're supposed to ignore a woman on her period?).

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If I don't believe those things, I'm no longer a Christian.

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According to who? I know a couple of people who consider themselves Christians but aren't homophobic/belive in evolultion/don't believe every word in the bible.

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Okay, you're right, I'm not an expert in Wiccan or other religious beliefs, but I do know enough about them to know that they aren't the true way to eternal life - I know this by first-hand experience.

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Err... you know this, how exactly? You have an eternal life?

Could we please get back to my topic? Does homosexuality actually hurt people?

Pquiwe dhif. Wsofjfg wfuf chdks. Gdjdksl.

If you want any more nonsense from an idiotic non-Christian, I'm happy to provide.

Signature:

All non-Christians are wrong.
-JoeyDauben

Joey, you said that Becca is correct that only Christians can be right. But Becca is not a Christian, therefore she is wrong, therefore she is right.

When you say that "only Christians are right" do you mean that about everything? What should we do with all the non-Christians if everything they say is wrong? They're quite a pain to have in this world, I'd say. Put them in Hell where they belong.

No wait, it would get kinda crouded, seeing as there are over 4 billion of them.

STOP OFFENDING THE MAJORITY OF ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH!

Tsk tsk tsk, Joey.

You just claimed you're right and everyone else is wrong simply because you're a Christian.

I thought you were trying to see both sides of the coin? That other "non-Christian" side is being looked over.

Becca:

"You seem to believe thst only Christians can Possibly be right."

That is exactly what I'm saying.

So what's your point?

"Just because your bible says Witchcraft is punishable by death, Homosexuality is wrong, and All gods besides yours are wrong, that is not a valid reason to believe those things."

Okay, so then what am I supposed to believe? The Bible states those things, and I believe them.

If I don't believe those things, I'm no longer a Christian.

Just like if you (you know more than me, so correct me) didn't follow what the "rede" was, you wouldn't be a Wiccan anymore?

Anyway, do you get what I'm saying though?

See, the Bible is clear about certain things. We can't have people being "offended" and then have them turn around and distort the original meaning so it fits their viewpoint (i.e., homosexual pastors, same-sex unions, prayer to Mary, saints)

Sooo if it can't be valid to believe them, then I can't be a Christian.


Okay, you're right, I'm not an expert in Wiccan or other religious beliefs, but I do know enough about them to know that they aren't the true way to eternal life - I know this by first-hand experience.

I believed in the same things you did or do.



But anyway, I think I've said my peace.

Joey,

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How bout this:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." [King James Version]

Modern translation:

"Do not allow a woman who practices witchcraft to live."

The message was translated - not taken away or added.

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First of all, Not all witches are female. There are male witches, as the only name for a witch is 'Witch' The word Warlock? that is someone who twists the wiccan rede to his own will, basically the opposite of a Wiccan/Witch. Kinda like those 'Muslim' Terrorists you seem so uninformed about.
A Sorceress and a Witch are two very different things. A witch/Wiccan is a follower of a religious belief. I am a witch. I do not know any sorceresses, and i actually don't believe there are any modern sorceresses.

Just because your bible says Witchcraft is punishable by death, Homosexuality is wrong, and All gods besides yours are wrong, that is not a valid reason to believe those things. I mean, that would be like running around killing adults who are eating Trix cereal for breakfast while screaming "Trix are for Kids!!" Just because the box says so.

Also, you completely missed the point about 'Poisoner' and "Witch'. A 'poisoner' is, obviously, a person who poisons people, most likely to try and murder them. A WITCH does no such thing. A witch is what i am, I follow the rede,(I've told u about my religion before, you know what i believe)and NEVER conciously hurt anyone.

You have your stories crossed.

And did I meantion that in Wicca it's considered wrong and unfair to tell others things like

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Rather, "We're going to pray for you because what you are doing is a sin in God's eyes."

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Basically, saying that 'if you don't believe in My god, and follow MY rules, you are going to go to Hell'

THAT is a translation, Case. In. Point.

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Other religious faiths are sins (idol worshipping) and yes, the Bible, in the OLD Testament, stated punishment as stoning and death and the like.

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Hmm... I wonder what other religions have to say about yours. I would be most interested in hearing how a Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, or a follower of any other religion would take that quote. I bet they would be pretty insulted by that remark, saying yours is the only true god. But then again, i bet they feel the same way about their own beliefs and THEIR holy book. Now, would you mind proving them wrong as well?
I at least do not say you will go to some sort of hell for not thinking the same way as me. I only want you to see the errors in your beliefs so that you will understand you cannot disregard other's beliefs. I think that ANY of the religions on this earth could possibly be correct, and i think that the diversity of them all is wonderful. But you don't seem to think that.

You seem to believe thst only Christians can Possibly be right.

Now, i have the feeling you will counter this with one of your oh-so-eloquent remarks about Christianity being so widespread, so of course it must be true.

Well, i have two arguments to counter that as well.
1. Think for a second about how Christianity became so popular, hmm? People decided that only they were right, and decided to wage war on those different than them. Crusades would be an example of that. You know, those people fighting people in 'The name of God' and what not. So, these people win the wars and convert the residents of that particular Area into Christians, because they are OBVIOUSLY the only valid religon.

Not only Chritianity has fought these kinds of Wars. Other religions as well. But it cannot be argured that those kinds of events never took place. Men going into the jungle and converting natives and the like. It. Has. Happened.

2. Ever heard of Nazi Germany? Most of Germany believed Hitler was this great guy, believed that the Jews and ect. were the cause of all their problems. So then a little thing called the Concentration camp was born, where Jews would supposedly be 'punished' for being who they happened to be.

Many people followed hitler, but does this make them right?

'What is popular is not always right, what is right is not always popular'

Simple as that.

~Becca