You're a pretty smart person. Stick around.

I can't simply say that being homosexual is a choice because I've never been one, and yet one could argue that acting on it is a choice, just like its a choice for a heterosexual person to act on their sexual inclinations. I'm simply saying that I believe that every trait that every person has is because of an outside source, whether we know what that source is or not, whether the source is "good" or "bad". And those sources that affect us have freewill, they make choices and those choices effect us and the way that we turn out. Growing up were like pages and everyone we come in contact with leaves a mark, whether that mark is "pretty", "ugly","bad", or "good", "common", or "uncommon".

So you're saying homosexuality is a choice.

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My argurment to the whole god argument against homosexuality is that if some of us weren't meant to be homosexual, then why are we? God created us all and he obviousily created us this way, it isn't a choice it's what... hmm... how to put it... i guess it's just the way we are.

I think that God intended for a lot of things in us humans to be different that we are, but since we have freewill and there are other deciding factors in how we turn out that don't include him sadly, then I don't think this argument can be affectively used. It's like I'm sure he intended for men and woman to stay chaste until marriage, but we don't see too much of that happening anymore.

I'm sure he didn't intend on a lot of things, I won't type simply because I don't want to give anyone the reason to think I'm comparing them to homosexuality, and yet just look around I'm sure we can find plenty of things that God didn't intend, or want to happen in making us. And yet because everyone has freewill and a choice and all this freedom and what not, the way he intended us to be made and to grown up back when he originally created us can't really be brought into effect. I think he knows this and just wants us to use our experiences to bring ourselves and others closer to him.

Yahweh isn't the only one who created humans. Take that into consideration.

My argurment to the whole god argument against homosexuality is that if some of us weren't meant to be homosexual, then why are we? God created us all and he obviousily created us this way, it isn't a choice it's what... hmm... how to put it... i guess it's just the way we are.

Unfortunately, for all purpouses of realism, we can't exlude it. Humans are something different now. Not more, but different. I don't know the answer to it. I know what I feel is right, but it contradicts all evidence. ( shrugs )

Oh. Got it.

If you exclude those from the argument then you are right.

Ah, but that's using feeling, and belief. They are set aside for this argument.

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*grins* Because it's true?

No. Because it's stupid. It's not like the world needs anymore people in it.

*grins* Because it's true?

Okay. I understand now. I still hate that argument.

The acts themselves are "unnatural" in their own right, because in our most basic animal form, we are meant to populate, survive, die and be reborn. Love aside, morality aside, belief aside, feelings aside, that is what we are, in our basest form. Where in that side of humanity does being homosexual help?

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The love you have with your girlfriend sort of denies that reproduction exists.

How? I don't undersand

The love you have with your girlfriend sort of denies that reproduction exists. Not you, or your mind, your thoughts, but your actions.

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It's like in all of creation, their has to be a man and a woman, sperm and an egg, in order for new life to be formed, and in homosexuality, that doesn't happen.

I hate this argument. I really do. I still have ovaries. I can still have a child. I just can't make it with my girlfriend. Whats the big deal?

Humans have done most everything they can ( consciously or subconsciously ) to distinguish themselves from nature. They are trying to "rise above" it. They view the natural world as something lesser and inferior, something to command and control. ( Xianity isn't helping this, either ) If they don't want to be part of nature so much, why not take the argument to them? I'll debate on their grounds; why not?

Interesting way of looking at it.

Hm. Yes, you are talking in a circle, an effective one. I was viewing nature as Nature, the ways of the Land around us, of the Forest Lord and all the world. Morality is slightly seperate from the ways of nature. Nature is an uncaring master. Morality doesn't matter to Him when you are holding all chaos and all order in your hands.

But if all morality is, is you're beliefs of right and wrong, and your beliefs of right and wrong are based on your belief system, and in your belief system, the nature of humans are to be together as man and woman, and something went against that, something like homosexuality, wouldn't that then make it a sin?

Am I talking in circles? lol