quote:

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Are you claiming that there are just as many men being paid less than women for comparable work as there are women paid less than men etc? Come on!

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No, that's not what I implied. Jade basically stated that all women are paid less than men, which is not true. I don't know the statistics on who gets paid more in the general work force, but I DO know that there ARE females who get paid a higher salary than males.

first off, all of my quotes that you pulled up were not in direct context with each other. had you thought to maybe consider the entire thing, you'd have realized that when i said we are all paid the same dispite our gender, i obviously meant that GENDER DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR PAYCHECK. can i make that any clearer. it speaks for itself, right? well, i should hope so. seriously, can you just give me one example of a guy earning more than a girl, having the same competence level, working the same amount of time, doing the same job, working for the same employer, working the same hours... etc...? somehow, i doubt you can find one. at least not in legit american places of employment. it's a useless arguement.

second... when i said i admit that those statistics are true, i was acknowledging that your sources were most likely credible, and if they weren't, not many people would be able to tell the difference, including myself because i don't obsess over these things. now clearly i am not contradicting my statement that we receive equal pay, simply because in your statistics it did not outline the "exact years on job, competency, hours worked, etc. scenario. if it had, then i would have been contradicting myself.

and just to set the record straight... you did fail. now, let's see if you can prove me wrong. if you can, or think you can, i'd like you to do so.

(game over?) nawww... not yet... unless you're getting tired, O great mistress of the pine.

god bless,
snoop

quote:

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Originally posted by snoopyD:
someone on here said that women still earn 75 cents to a man's dollar... HA! [...] nowadays, we all earn equal pay dispite our gender. i don't mean to insult you, i'm just pointing out the facts.

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I proved you were wrong. Simple as that.

Furthermore, you admit it:

quote:

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Originally posted by snoopyD:
all of these statistics are true

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So how is your conclusion this:

quote:

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Originally posted by snoopyD:
i'm impressed that you'd go to so much trouble to pull up these statistics and try to set me in my place or prove me wrong or whatever your motive may be, but you failed.

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Obviously, if the point was to show you you're wrong, and I did that, and you admit that I did, it is non-sensical to say I failed to do that.

You made a stupid claim, I show you reality, we agree on the statistics (that women ger paid less for the same job). Game over.

i'm impressed that you'd go to so much trouble to pull up these statistics and try to set me in my place or prove me wrong or whatever your motive may be, but you failed. all of these statistics are true, or at least i'm willing to believe they are. unfortunately for your arguement, i can present one without even doing research.

did you ever consider that in most of these cases, if not all, the men have been the agressors and harder workers? i'm not saying that's the case, but it might as well be. it completely shuts down your arguement until you can prove me otherwise.

seriously, how many women are the owners or heads of large corperations or any company in general for that matter? not many. is it because of sexism? absolutely not! it's because the women that have the resources and the power to purchase a company either usually don't or fail most of the time if they do. men fail at this most of the time as well, so don't classify my comment as sexist. some women do work their way to the top of companies, but like most men, don't last long as king/queen of the hill.

i think that this whole budget gap issue is just one more thing that women are using to gripe about. and think about the actual jobs that we're considering. did you know that most grocery stores have female cashiers and male stock clerks, and male managers? why's this? sexism yet again? could be... but on both sides of the coin. the men get stuck with the disgusting and difficult work while the ladies work the cash register.

or how about banks. how many male tellers to you see now? certainly not as many as female. and why's this? hmm... could it be because the women are applying for these jobs? i don't know... that's a long shot.

you should also consider the fact that many women in america are mothers, and they only have time to work part-time jobs, so these jobs don't pay as well in the first place. then you have to consider who owns the company and what the gender hierarchy of the place of emplyment is.

you see, the budget gap isn't a consequence of sexism, it's a consequence of one gender taking a more dominant approach to the higher paying jobs. it has only to do with individual will power and success, not what's underneath your clothes.

there's my two sense... oh... and dante... according to you, it'll only be what? another six years before women will have that extra two cents to spare as well?

god bless,
snoopy

The wage gap between men and women stubbornly remains despite the passage of the Equal Pay Act nearly 40 years ago. Women are still not receiving equal pay for equal work, let alone equal pay for comparable work. This disparity not only affects women's spending power; it penalizes their retirement security by creating gaps in social security and pensions.

* The General Accounting Office compiled data from the Current Population Survey regarding the ten industries that employ 71 percent of U.S. women workers and 73 percent of U.S. women managers. The pay gap between full-time working women and men managers widened between 1995 and 2000, in seven of the ten industries examined.
* A full-time working woman currently receives only 73 cents to every dollar received by a man.
* African-American women are paid only 65 cents for every dollar received by white men while Hispanic women are paid only 53 cents to the dollar.

* If women received the same as men who work the same number of hours, have the same education, union status, are the same age, and live in the same region of the country, then these women's annual family income would rise by $4,000 and poverty rates would be cut in half. Working families would gain an astounding $200 billion in family income annually.

* Pay equity in female-dominated jobs (jobs in which women comprise 70 percent or more of the workforce) would increase wages for women by approximately 18 percent.

* Fifty-five percent of all women work in female-dominated jobs (jobs in which women comprise 70 percent or more of the workforce) whereas only 8.5 percent of all men work in these occupations. However, these men still receive about 20 percent more than women who work in female-dominated jobs.

* Women are paid less in every occupational classification for which sufficient information is available, according to the data analysis in over 300 job classifications provided by the U.S. Department of Labor Statistics.

* In 1963, the year of the Equal Pay Act's passage, full-time working women were paid 59 cents on average to the dollar received by men, while in 2000 women were paid 73 cents for every dollar received by men. In other words, for the last 37 years, the wage gap has only narrowed by slightly more than one third of a penny per year.

_____________
Sources:
U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Reports P60-213: Money Income in the United States 2000 6 (2001).
AFL-CIO & the Institute for Women's Policy Research, Equal Pay for Working Families: National and State Data on Pay Gap and Its Costs (1999).
A New Look Through the Glass Ceiling: Where are the Women? Commissioned by Representatives John D. Dingell (D-Mich.) and Carolyn B. Maloney (D-N.Y.) (2002).

shawn was right when he said that women have more rights and opportunities than men do. here's a perfect example: if a man is interviewed for a job and does not get it, whatever the reason may be, that is the end of the story. if a woman is interviewed for a job, and does not get it, whatever the reason may be, they have the option of filing a sexist complaint. they can say that it is because they are female. to me, that is just an excuse. someone on here said that women still earn 75 cents to a man's dollar... HA! umm... excuse me, but is this pre-WWI? are you one of the lowell mills girls? nowadays, we all earn equal pay dispite our gender. i don't mean to insult you, i'm just pointing out the facts. it's an unavoidable fact that women now have more resources to turn to in the war for "equality"... that word has become a joke to America. if all people in america are equal, i suppose equal must mean that white men are at the bottom of the food chain and that's supposed to balance out their years of intolerance. well, let me just say that though white men once did persecute everyone who wasn't white, that has no affect on white men today. and just to set the records straight, i'm not necessarily white. this opinion was presented to me by an african american girl, so don't call me racist/sexist. so in a more direct answer to the post, yes... feminism is a good thing. however, it is not pertaining to any specific gender. it is the desire for both genders to be equal. i am a feminist. i am a guy.
god bless,
snoopy

Personally, I can't really talk too much on this topic, particularly since I'm a male. However, I believe that if any one has a dream to do something that they wish, whether it is to work as a construction worker, be a lawyer, or be the president of the United States, then they should be allowed to try for it, whether they be male or female. Now, like I said, I'm not a female, but I see things from everyone's point of view. I don't know what's up with the rest of the males but I will say this: having a family of any type requires sacrifices on both sides(mother and father). So why not share the responsibility? As in the male takes off some days from work, the female takes off some days from work. Makes more sense doesn't it? And this deal with the paycheck? I think that there should be an evaluation based on how hard you work and what you are capable of and nothing less. That should be the only difference in paychecks and not some sexist pigs idea of female capabilities. Well, anyway, ya'll have a nice day, hear?
Mark

Nowadays all girls are feminists, right? It is a rarity to find a girl, young woman, who believes that they should have to stay home to take care of their 2.5 kids and scrub the floor on their hands and knees whilst hubby brings in the bacon. All we goodhearted feminists want is the same opportunities that our male counterparts have been abusing for years. We want to climb our way to the top, not sleep our way into success. We want o walk down the street without hearing the catcalls and wistles- no matter what we are wearing- whether it be a t-shirt and jeans or low-cut, skin-thight dress. Guys can walk around with their shirts off right and their pants hanging off of them, why can't we show some skin too? There are ofcourse pitfalls to every movement. Bad feminists, the ones who are downright violent and man-hating don't represent the whole group. As far as asking my mother if she's a feminist- I don't have to. Like I said before, we all are.

Are you claiming that there are just as many men being paid less than women for comparable work as there are women paid less than men etc? Come on!


Love, Jenny

Jade, maybe this applies in some cases, but you’re generalizing and comparing how all women and men are treated. There –ARE- women who get paid more money than men doing the same exact job, just like there are men who get pad more than women for the same job. Hence why I said “everyone is equal regardless of sex,” no matter who chooses to recognize that, the same would apply to different races.

Sadly if a women and a man do the same exact thing(Job wise) a women still gets paid 75 cents for every dollar a man makes. In showbiz a woman only gets paid 25 cents for every dollar a man makes!
That's what i don't agree with. People do the same exact job and we(woman) get paid less.

~Jade

Everyone is equal, regardless of sex.

Rose...

Feminism -Advocacy of the political, social, and economis equality of men and women.

I am a guy, and i am a feminist. Now saying that, i believe that females Have more rights than guys do. and that makes me angry. Some "feminists" gripe about how a guy will get hired to a job before a girl (example) When in all actuality The female will get hired before the male. It's wierd, Companies don't look for work ethics and the best person for the job, but rather getting a good mix of male/female Black/white(example).

I said this just so you know that true feminism isn't "being able to watch the superbowl, or a hockey or baseball game,and being as into it as the guys. Feminism is standing up for your beliefs, about women" But its about Standing up for your beliefs about Men and Women being equal.

~shawn

Well, I don't burn bras, and i've never attended a protest, but by the standards of the small town that i live in I'm the "radical feminist one." I seriously don't think that I'm radical at all, I just find it stupid that even in today's society, women are still not equal to men. Tell me what's so bad about wanting to change this.

what do I think feminism is? I think feminism is doing everything that's supposedly a "guy" thing, and not thinking about it. True feminism is being able to watch the superbowl, or a hockey or baseball game,and being as into it as the guys. Feminism is standing up for your beliefs, about women, that we are no different from men, except for a few physical exceptions. Feminism is empowerment and community among the women of the world.

Where to start. Where to friggin' start. Hear me out now--both guys and gals.

Yes, I am a feminist.

When people think of feminism, they picture man-eating elitist lesbian feminazis on a mission to completely eliminate men from society. Feminism gets such a bad rap, and thus, this is why most women dislike being labeled as feminist because they don’t want to be associated with all the connotations behind feminism. Many people don’t understand that like any other oppressed group in society, feminist don't want special rights--they just want EQUAL rights. I think people wouldn’t be so quick to ridicule feminism if they knew the facts behind it, and the position women have to face in today’s world.

“By the nineteenth century, the term feminism implied three evolving philosophies: the political belief that the sexes are culturally, not just biologically, created; the process of opposing male supremacy; and oman’s right and responsibility to realize her own potential.”

--An excerpt from the book ManifestA, by Jennifer Baumgarder and Amy Richards

Women are expected to succumb to patriarchal scum and just sit around and look pretty. Sex appeal in a necessity in today’s society, and in order to do that it’s expected of women to shave their legs, strut around in a tight corset and heels, and cake their faces with powder. Women are also expected to become stay-at-home moms, and if they do work...they make 52 less cents for every dollar that men make.

I’d take wood shop over home ec. any day. Watching Super Bowl Sunday with my guy friends is something I enjoy. My legs don’t shiver in the freezing cold from wearing a skirt, nor do my toes hurt from squeezing my feet into 7 inch stilettos. I like to play in the mud, I like to jump in puddles, I like to get dirty. I don’t put up with that nonsense that society dictates for me, thank you very much.

Rebecca West once said, "People call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that distingusih me from a doormat."

This is why, guys and gals, I am a feminist.

Sorry Songbird. Didn't catch the context/intent of your post.

But ya, the draft shouldn't even be THOUGHT of.


Unless it's the Bush twins or Chelsea Clinton going off to fight ...


(sarcasm there, but you get the point)

Rocker, the good thing about a free enterprise, capitalist economic society is that if the women at a particular business are being "oppressed," then you don't - and your friends don't - have to take it.

You can simply go to an office that doesn't practice those assinine policies.

Now if I had an ounce of common sense and business sense, then I'd hire all sorts of different people - why? Because not one race is superior to any; many talents exist among many people.

If we are truly to be independent and "tolerant" of other people's views, then you must accept the fact that there are private businesses (and people) who "discriminate" against certain people based either partly or solely on: race, gender, creed, etc.


Now if you tried lobbying Congress to make businesses FORCE the hiring of certain people based on those race, gender, creed criteria, then what is that doing?

Not only is it violating someone's rights (initiation of force is violating someone's right), but it is FORCING them to accept views they don't agree with.

If you're mad, get mad; write letters to the editor (businesses hate bad press), strike...

...most of all though, just get up and walk away. You're obviously better than that and probably would be able to make more money by going somewhere else.

Women are allowed in the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines and are allowed to shoot a gun and are allowed to fly fighter planes and fight on the front lines of war. So...???

About the draft thing...you and every other girl out there should be thankful for not having to FORCEFULLY register; the draft is the most horrible, anti-individual measure the U.S. government imposes on us (guys). Who'd want to be TOLD that you MUST go off and fight in a war (assuming the U.S. had another draft)? Maybe you should talk to some Vietnam vets who were 17, 18-years-old when they were TOLD to go off and fight.

Joey, I was trying to say that NO ONE SHOULD BE DRAFTED. IF there was a draft, everyone should be drafted. thats what being equal is about. But I don't think that anyone should be drafted.

I never said anything that women with easy jobs like you mentioned should be paid the same as the construction men! No way. Anyone with a certain type of job should be paid the same. Duh.

Personally, whistling is for fourth and fifth-graders, but if you're a hottie, what's your problem?

Maybe I'm a hottie with morals. how about you tell the whistling high-school guys that they belong in fifth grade? I'm sure they'll appreciate your vast intellect.

Lots of love,
Lynne

I believe in equality of the sexes. If thats being a feminist, well, I am.

About the draft thing, I dont think women (or men) should be drafted, no one should. So I agree with Joey.

Every day that I turn on TV and see advertisement I get angry on how women are treated like objects to sell products. This degrades women everywhere!!!! But who should I get mad too?? Theres no one to blame except the WOMEN who are shown in the ads.

Then there are the beauty pageants!!! please enough of this stupid senseless stuff. Not just woman competing for who is the most beautiful, but also men!! Right I forgot they also measure smarts with questions like.. what would you do if you knew you where going to die tomorrow??
I am sick of this.

So while some women are trying to make guys understand we are not only useful when it comes to making dinner some others are promoting being objectified! (is that a word???).