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Picture of Beccanidge
Registered: October 06, 2002
Posts: 119
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to Dante (or anyone else for that matter)

quote:
It seems to describe the results of ritual sexual orgies as performed in many Pagan settings at the time. Paul seems to be referring here to Pagan "fertility cult worship prevalent in Rome" at the time. Vestiges of this type of sex magic are still seen today in some Neopagan religious traditions. The Wiccan "Great Rite" is one example. However, in modern times, such rituals are restricted to committed couples in private.


Yes, sexual rites are used in Wicca. As Wicca is an earth-based religion, sex is held sacred and is, (obviously) used mainly in fertility rites, such as The Great Rite. It is not objectified, but upheld as sacred for means of reproduction and pleasure.

But you meantioned some things about Paganism stated in the Bible...

quote:
Verses 21-23: The people had once been Christians. But they had fallen away from the faith, and returned to Paganism. They made images of Pagan gods in the form of men, birds, animals and reptiles for their religious rituals. The latter were probably held in Pagan temples.
Verse 24: Next, they engaged in heterosexual orgies with each other as part of these pagan fertility rituals.
Verse 25: Next, they worshipped the images that they had made, instead of God, the creator. Paul is specifically condemning idol worship here.



1. Paganism, mainly Wicca, began long before Christianity came about. It evolved from early beliefs which revolved around the Fertility Goddess and The God of the Hunt. Over time it became more fine-tuned and focussed. There was no huge convertion that is meantioned, because leaders of enite countries would just state themselves as 'Christian' and sometimes only superficially at that, while the people of the countries would still be followers of the old ways. Christians built theit temples on top of Pagan ones to draw more people (so obviously Chrisitanity came AFTER paganism) Magick has alway been used (Simpathetic magick, when the hunters would simulate a kill by 'attacking' clay/wood figures of whatever animal they were going to hunt to help make the hint successful) And as the Goddess/God are seen in everything, there were different statues of animals to represent them.
2. Yes, heterosexual rites were used (and still are) but not with the frequency that is promoted. I spoke about this earlier...
3. The idols are representations of Gaia (the all= the god and goddess) so it's just like praying to a cross or Jesus figure in Christianity

Now, Dante, I'm not saying you had believed/agreed with what you said (I think you were just paraphrasing the bible) But I'm just attempting to make amends with the statements

~Becca
Registered: December 04, 2002
Posts: 157
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So are you advocating just picking and choosing the parts of the Bible that you will and won't follow? You believe the New Testament, but not the Old? No hellfire and damnation for you? Golly, that must make Christianity easier on you! Good thinkin'!
Picture of Dante
Registered: April 27, 2002
Posts: 855
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I remember reading that a few years ago. There was a similar adaptation of it on the show "The West Wing" where the president goes off on a Dr. Laura-type figure about her views.

The gist is that the Levitical laws are pretty absurd today. The punishment for most everything was also death in any number of ways.

You will often, however, still see Orthodox Jews follwing these laws (hence the long hair on the temples that often curls, a kosher diet, etc.). People like Joey, however, choose (wisely or not) to disregard this portion of the Bible. Sometimes the justification with be that the New Testament superceeds that of the old.

Strangely enough, however, it's the Christians who disaprove of homosexuality more often that the Jewish.

Essentially what we get then is a selective interpretation, at which point you wonder what we can next disregard.

Leviticus has thus become one of not necessarily controversial, but most quoted and discussed in the religion debate.

As for the topic: As stated in 2 Peter 3:15-17, we have to be very careful when interpreting the writings of Paul: "As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (KJV)

As stated by Dr. R.S. Truluck, "Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, and the list could go on and on.  Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand.  A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate.  Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation.  We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said." 

It is important to understand the precise meaning of certain key words in Verses 26 & 27, as expressed in the original Greek:

About the words "vile affections:" The Greek phrase translated as "vile affections" in the King James Version of the Bible is also translated as:
"vile affections and degrading passions" (Amplified Bible)
"dishonorable passions" (English Standard Version)
"degrading passions" (New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, & New Revised Standard Version)
"shameful lusts" (New International Version)
"shameful desires" (New Living Translation)
"evil things" (Living Bible)
"shameful affections" (Rheims New Testament)

In the original Greek, the phrase probably does not mean "passions" or "lust" as people experienced in normal, day-to-day living -- the type of emotion that one encounters in a marriage or sexually active relationship. It seems to refer to the "frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music." It seems to describe the results of ritual sexual orgies as performed in many Pagan settings at the time. Paul seems to be referring here to Pagan "fertility cult worship prevalent in Rome" at the time. Vestiges of this type of sex magic are still seen today in some Neopagan religious traditions. The Wiccan "Great Rite" is one example. However, in modern times, such rituals are restricted to committed couples in private.

About the word "against nature," "unnatural," etc: The Greek phrase "para physin" is commonly translated into the English as:
"unnatural and abnormal" (Amplified Bible)
"contrary to nature" (English Standard Version)
"against nature" (King James Version, Rheims New Testament)
"sin with each other" (Living Bible)
"unnatural" (New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version)

This does not seem to be an accurate translation. It may demonstrate prejudice on the part of the translators. "Unnatural" implies that the act is something that is to be morally condemned. M. Nissinen defines "para physin" as "Deviating from the ordinary order either in a good or a bad sense, as something that goes beyond the ordinary realm of experience." 3 The word "unconventional" would have been a more precise word for translators to use. The phrase "Para physin" appears elsewhere in the Bible:
In 1 Corinthians 11:14, Paul uses the phrase to refer to long hair on men as unusual and not ordinary.
In Romans 11:24, Paul used it to describe God's positive actions to bring Jews and Gentiles together.

The context in which Verses 26 & 27 appear:

It is important to analyze the preamble to the verses quoted above:
Romans 1:7 says that Paul is writing his epistle "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints...": That is, his letter is written to all of the Christians in Rome. His recipients would be submerged in the Roman culture, where homosexual behavior was both widespread and acceptable by society.
Romans 1 is concerned with "Paul's vigorous denunciation of idolatrous religious worship and rituals." 2 This is not often mentioned today. Rather, verses 26 and 27 are broken out of the longer passage and cited by themselves to condemn same-sex behavior.

Verses 21 to 28 include the following topics:
Verses 21-23: The people had once been Christians. But they had fallen away from the faith, and returned to Paganism. They made images of Pagan gods in the form of men, birds, animals and reptiles for their religious rituals. The latter were probably held in Pagan temples.
Verse 24: Next, they engaged in heterosexual orgies with each other as part of these pagan fertility rituals.
Verse 25: Next, they worshipped the images that they had made, instead of God, the creator. Paul is specifically condemning idol worship here.
Verse 26: Because of these forbidden practices, God intervened in these fertility sex-rituals and changed the people's behavior so that women started to engage in sexual activities with other women.
Verse 27: describes how God had the men also engage in same-sex ritual activities. They (presumably both the men and women) were then punished in some way for their error.
Verse 28: Again, because they did not acknowledge God, then He "gave them up" to many different unethical activities and attitudes: evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, etc.

References:
1. "How to be true to the Bible and say 'Yes' to same-sex unions,"  at: http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/bennett.html 
2. R.S. Truluck, "The six Bible passages used to condemn homosexuals," at: http://www.truluck.com/html/
3. Quoted in: Bruce Hane, "'Natural' and 'unnatural' " at: http://www.newvisionsproject.org/
4. "Free to be gay: A brief look at the Bible and homosexuality," Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, at: http://www.ualberta.ca/~cbidwell/UFMCC/

Finally, being "unnatural" is no justification for condemnation. Even if we were to accept a view like yours there is no sounds basis for it. Left-handedness is unnatural and relatively rare (11% of the population). Vegetarianism likewise is a choice and unnatural but ceratinly doesn't rise to the level of moral condemnation you would want to foist upon homosexuals.

Also, many would contend that homosexuality is, given it's nature, natural. What would be 'unnatural' is for a homosexual to deny his/her tendencies or to engage in heterosexual intercourse against what seems 'natural' to him/her.
<JoeyDauben>
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The Leviticus verse is the most common anti-homosexual verse pulled...

...people need to start looking for up-to-date ones, like the ones in the New Testament - geesh.


***********

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind..." - Romans 26-28
Registered: October 12, 2002
Posts: 61
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I like that...it's kinda funny!!

~Jade
Picture of DrStrangelove
Registered: March 13, 2002
Posts: 3477
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Not bad, not bad at all big grin
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