quote:

I think you're confused.

That's the under-statement of the century.

quote:

At $5,528 worth of marriage benefits per person, that's equal to $24,461,400,000 of taxpayer money, about the same amount that the government (everything involved with the American government) wastes every year.
Hardly a dent in the economy is it?

So hold on, not only are gays not taxpayers, but the other half of the gay population that doesn't get married according to your prediction wouldn't be contributing to the tax-paying pot either? I think you're confused.

And who is to say that that is a waste? And who is to say straight marriages aren't a waste?

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Go ahead. I've never been offended by anything, ever.

Then stop whining.

quote:

The stupidity of this sentence hardly constitutes answering, but I have some time on my hands: They aren't.

Oh, then I must be blind.

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Then you should report them and have them arrested.

They've been arrested plenty of times, but they keep bailing each other out.

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Which is why conservatives are trying to impose tort reform, something which liberals are fighting tooth and nail.

That ain't my problem.

quote:

but thanks to the laws of nature, they are the overall best.

What laws of nature? Just because some guy can marry me and hose me down with his seed, doesn't mean we'll automatically be good parents. Christian-Conservative "Traditional Family" Structures have nothing to do with the laws of nature, if that is what you're thinking. I'm Pagan. I know nature very well. Tell me something I don't know.

quote:

How about teaching abstinence? That form of birth and STD control works everytime.

True, but it is common and normal for teenagers to experiment. And if they must, it is absolutely vital for them know how to protect themselves.

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You think I'm an advocate for those places?

You're missin out.

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I am serious. And don't call me Shirely.

You have no right to quote that movie.

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Are these black woman all native born or are most of them immigrants?

I thought it was pretty obvious they were all native born, considering the term African American was used. Besides, how many African females do you think come over here each year? I'd also like to point out that most black girls, excluding myself, are pretty stupid.

quote:

the ones that are really targetted by AIDS are those who are engaging in unprotected homosexual sex with multiple partners. That is undeniable.

But more and more gay men are protecting themselves. Especially, younger gay men. You should've seen all the condoms at my friend's house. He never used them all, but he's smart enough to be prepared. And that is the problem; stupidity. The AIDS virus is not "targeting" anything, but warm, human flesh to nourish its genetic copies. Gay men just have a method of having sex that makes transmission easier. And straight people perform this method as well, alllllllllllllllllll the time.

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
Wow. I want to call you something inappropriate and ignorant,

Go ahead. I've never been offended by anything, ever.

quote:

but you're not worth my awesomely evil insults.

Okay, I'll take your word for it.

quote:

How are they stealing from taxpayers if they can't marry?

The stupidity of this sentence hardly constitutes answering, but I have some time on my hands: They aren't.

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If anyone is stealing, it's low income black people,

True.

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like my mother's best friend, who fostered 7 kids and used the money she got from the state to buy new stuff like a car and a house. Her entire family is like that. They've cheated hundreds of thousands of dollars out of the government.

Then you should report them and have them arrested.

quote:

And there are many more people like that across the country.

Yep. No point in adding fuel to the fire, right?

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People who fake injuries to get massive settlements,

Which is why conservatives are trying to impose tort reform, something which liberals are fighting tooth and nail.

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My entire life is proof that two opposite sex parents are not always the best option.

I take it that's a typo, but no worries, happens to the best of us.

quote:

And they wouldn't even make a tiny dent on the economy.

The American Government wastes over $26,000,000,000 a year (remember that).
We'll say 3% of Americans are gay (seems reasonable, low if anything).
We'll say a half of those gays would get married (1.5% of the total population).
Marriage benefits (according to the Human Rights Campaign Foundation report released in January) equal $5,528 per person.
There are 295,000,000 people in the United States, and according to my calculations, that would equal 4,425,000 married gays.
At $5,528 worth of marriage benefits per person, that's equal to $24,461,400,000 of taxpayer money, about the same amount that the government (everything involved with the American government) wastes every year.
Hardly a dent in the economy is it?

quote:

And what makes you so sure a married heterosexual couple is the best option? At times it can be the worst. Two parents does not equal good, responsible parenting.

Anyone has the "ability" to raise a child well, just like anyone has the ability to do most things. Sure, at some times heterosexual couples can be the bad, but thanks to the laws of nature, they are the overall best. The system ain't broken, there's no need to try to fix it.

quote:

No, stopping the spread of AIDS would include safe sex education,

Going on right now, with great so far.

quote:

the use of condoms and the promoting of monogamy.

How about teaching abstinence? That form of birth and STD control works everytime.

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Let's not forgot about straight sex clubs, straight brothels, fetish clubs, sex shops and the numerous other places of rampant heterosexual activity.

You think I'm an advocate for those places?

quote:

By the way, you sure know a lot about what goes on in bathhouses and gay bars. A frequent patron, I presume?

Well, I was young and needed the money...

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Here's your proof, nancy boy.

I am serious. And don't call me Shirely.

quote:

[QUOTE] African Americans make up 13 percent of the population, yet we now account for 41 percent of all AIDS cases in the United States. The Harvard AIDS Institute estimates that by the year 2000 more than half of all our country’s AIDS cases will be within the African American community.

Ah... I know how to spot a half truth when I see one. Are these black woman all native born or are most of them immigrants?

quote:

http://www.avert.org/lesbiansafesex.htm

Come on. If I citied the 700 Club, would you consider it unbiased?

quote:

How is that not true? How can the HIV virus determine whether someone is gay or not and consciously choose to infect them? The HIV virus targets HUMANS. It spreads by stupidity and carelessness.

The fact of the matter is that now that blood transfusions are relatively safe, the ones that are really targetted by AIDS are those who are engaging in unprotected homosexual sex with multiple partners. That is undeniable.

Same-gender sexual relations are sinful and lead you straight to Hell. Simple as that.

quote:

Not so. I have no problem with them, until they started stealing from the American taxpayer.

Wow. I want to call you something inappropriate and ignorant, but you're not worth my awesomely evil insults. How are they stealing from taxpayers if they can't marry? If anyone is stealing, it's low income black people, like my mother's best friend, who fostered 7 kids and used the money she got from the state to buy new stuff like a car and a house. Her entire family is like that. They've cheated hundreds of thousands of dollars out of the government. And there are many more people like that across the country. People who fake injuries to get massive settlements, people who steal merchandise, people who lie on their tax returns and people who decide to have 10 or 15 children all effect the amount of taxes you have to pay.

quote:

Prove it. What makes you think balanced influences are inferior to inbalanced?

My entire life is proof that two opposite sex parents are not always the best option.

quote:

The gay population is so relatively small, this wouldn't even make a tiny dent in adoption numbers.

And they wouldn't even make a tiny dent on the economy.

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So you believe that, on average, a single mother provides a better home for a child than married heterosexual couple?

No. I believe that anyone has the ability to raise a child whether they are single parents, older brothers or sisters, aunts or uncles, grandmothers or grandfathers. All a kid needs is good parenting. Single mothers have the ability to provide that. Unfortunately, some aren't good as others. And what makes you so sure a married heterosexual couple is the best option? At times it can be the worst. Two parents does not equal good, responsible parenting.

quote:

Yes it is.

No, it is not. If a couple can't afford children, they have the option to not reproduce.

quote:

No, stopping the spread of AIDS would have to include shutting down bathhouses, gay sex bars, and other places of rampant homosexual sexual activities.

No, stopping the spread of AIDS would include safe sex education, the use of condoms and the promoting of monogamy. Let's not forgot about straight sex clubs, straight brothels, fetish clubs, sex shops and the numerous other places of rampant heterosexual activity. By the way, you sure know a lot about what goes on in bathhouses and gay bars. A frequent patron, I presume?

quote:

I'm really getting tired of hitting the P, R, O, & F keys.

Here's your proof, nancy boy.

quote:

The AIDS rate among Black women is three times as high as that among Latino women and 18 times as high as that among White women. Today Black women make up more than half of all women who have died of AIDS.

quote:

African Americans make up 13 percent of the population, yet we now account for 41 percent of all AIDS cases in the United States. The Harvard AIDS Institute estimates that by the year 2000 more than half of all our country’s AIDS cases will be within the African American community.

http://www.blackwomenshealth.com/HIV_AIDS.htm

quote:

The risks of sexually transmitting HIV between women are very low. Very few women are known to have passed HIV on to other women sexually.

http://www.avert.org/lesbiansafesex.htm

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The media made it seem like it could strike anyone, which was just not true.

How is that not true? How can the HIV virus determine whether someone is gay or not and consciously choose to infect them? The HIV virus targets HUMANS. It spreads by stupidity and carelessness.

quote:

The gay population is so relatively small, this wouldn't even make a tiny dent in adoption numbers.

quote:

Because gays make up such a small demographic (and even smaller one for gay couples who would raise children from infancy or childhood to adulthood)

Well, how the tables have turned. You keep saying that people need to provide proof (in that post in fact) and then you yourself make claims that you can't support... Here's an article for ya!

"There have been various other surveys in the US that have tried to measure numbers of gay people. An analysis of these surveys by the Human Rights Campaign came up with this conclusion.

'In the last three elections, the Voter News Service exit poll registered the gay vote between 4 percent and 5 percent. While concluding that the Census 2000 undercounted the total number of gay or lesbian households, for the purposes of this study, we estimate the gay and lesbian population at 5 percent of the total U.S. population over 18 years of age, (209,128,094). This results in an estimated total gay and lesbian population of 10,456,405. A recent study of gay and lesbian voting habits conducted by Harris Interactive determined that 30 percent of gay and lesbian people are living in a committed relationship in the same residence. Using that figure, we suggest that 3,136,921 gay or lesbian people are living in the United States in committed relationships in the same residence."

quote:

No, stopping the spread of AIDS would have to include shutting down bathhouses, gay sex bars, and other places of rampant homosexual sexual activities.

Do you know what it would also include? shutting down whore houses, hetero sex bars, and other places of rampant heterosexual sexual activities. And pretty much stop sex altogether. And blood transfusions. And birth. And rape. Then it would stop. It's not just a gay disease...

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because they did not care that it was just happening to gays.

But it's not just happening to gays! Do you even know what you're talking about? Do you know what AIDS is? Do some research...

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And yet they will 'ruin the economy'? HA.

Very true. But I'm sure that when interracial marriage was a big issue, (if reactionary had been around then), he would have been a big nay-sayer to that as well...

quote:

Un-Constitutional. But, hey, with the judges in your back pocket, you've got no need for any of that rubbish, do you?

In our back pocket? What? (assuming you're talking about the Supreme Court) If the judges were in our 'back-pocket' they wouldn't have chosen Bush to be pres. would they?...

And yet, after ALL of this conversation, the point that same sex couples are missing out on 1,138 benefits/rights of marriage is just passed over by opposers... You know reactionary, you say that you don't like to repeat yourself, but geez, this is like 7th time i've had to.. spanning over 3 or 4 boards...


And, if I may quote Peter Griffin; "To all the naysayers out there, I have two very powerful words for you... Come on... Come Onnn..."

quote:

you just dont like homosexuals.

Not so. I have no problem with them, until they started stealing from the American taxpayer

Your last post seems to have proven very differently.

No surprises.

quote:

Even the smallest stone can trip a runner.

Well perhaps we shouldn't be siphoning money away from the economy to subsidise faith based initiatives hmm?

Same sex marriage should be allowed for this simple reason: Marriage as a governmental institution is important only for tax and next-of-kin reasons. The government has no place "preserving the family" or "upholding moral standards". That's societies job.

All this talk that same sex marriage is detrimental to our economy and way of life is just a smoke screen. You know it, or you've just bought into your own rationalization.

quote:

Originally posted by liberalhugger:
What I'm saying is why give heteros bennefits over homosexuals?

I've covered this countless times. Look at my past posts, I'm done repeating myself.

quote:

You don't mind shelling out for 99% of the marreid nation, it's just the other minority that burns you on your tax forms.

I don't mind shelling out because I'll get it back somewhere down the road (with any luck )

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No reason but plain discrimanation.

No sh*t, Sherlock.

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And not all straight married married people have children, hence not "benneficial to society".

But the majority do. Can you claim that the majority of married gays would adopt 2.5 children, and keep up with married couples with children?

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Perhaps not having children should be made illegal too- heaven knows how much our society has a dire need for more babies.

Un-Constitutional. But, hey, with the judges in your back pocket, you've got no need for any of that rubbish, do you?

quote:

You give me one professional, multi expert agreed upon, economic projection and annalysis for legalized gay marriage that supports your claim.

For some reason, I can't post a link in between paragraphs, so its at the bottom.

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The increase in bennefits paid to married gay couples would be so distributed over the country that the difference would be minutely incramental.

I gave you proof, now you give me some.

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Even going along with that unfounded arguement, answer me this truly: If on your tax forms there was the option for a portion of your money NOT to finance gay bennefits, would you mind gay marriage?

I'm trying to be a pragmatist here. Let's stay out of morality, cause that will get us nowhere debatewise.

Gay Marriage and the Economy

quote:

Originally posted by mac123:
And yet they will 'ruin the economy'? HA.

Even the smallest stone can trip a runner.

quote:

quote:
That seems to be your only arguing point and it is sad. Why let heterosexuals marry then?

First of all, heterosexual marriage is not the question. Second of all, because heterosexual couples can produce children naturally. That child is mouth to feed and a body to clothe, and drives the baby goods industry, a multi billion dollar industry. What, again, do homosexual couples give back to the government of the economy that they don't do as singles.

What I'm saying is why give heteros bennefits over homosexuals? You don't mind shelling out for 99% of the marreid nation, it's just the other minority that burns you on your tax forms. No reason but plain discrimanation.

And not all straight married married people have children, hence not "benneficial to society". Perhaps not having children should be made illegal too- heaven knows how much our society has a dire need for more babies.

You give me one professional, multi expert agreed upon, economic projection and annalysis for legalized gay marriage that supports your claim.

The increase in bennefits paid to married gay couples would be so distributed over the country that the difference would be minutely incramental.

Even going along with that unfounded arguement, answer me this truly: If on your tax forms there was the option for a portion of your money NOT to finance gay bennefits, would you mind gay marriage?

quote:

Originally posted by reactionary05:

The gay population is so relatively small, this wouldn't even make a tiny dent in adoption numbers.

And yet they will 'ruin the economy'? HA.

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
Lie.

Prove it. What makes you think balanced influences are inferior to inbalanced?

quote:

Well, a lot of gay couples adopt children that most heterosexual couples wouldn't want.

The gay population is so relatively small, this wouldn't even make a tiny dent in adoption numbers.

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I remember there was this lesbian couple in Florida, I think, that only adopted kids with AIDS. People like that are a major benefit to society.

Do you want me to go into storytime too, or do you want to show us some proof.

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And marriage is unnatural.

For a moral relavatist, that's a very absolute statement.

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I don't need to be married to have a baby.

Yes, yes, we're quite aware of that.

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I don't need to be married to have a safe and stable environment for my children.

So you believe that, on average, a single mother provides a better home for a child than married heterosexual couple?

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I don't need to be married to stay monogamous with someone for decades.

These are all of big ifs, all of which are purely hypothetical.

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Therefore, hetero marriage is not necessarily needed.

Yes it is. The vast majority of couples with children spend over $100,000 raising each child to the age of 18, not including college tuition. Through marriage, the government is able to leviate some of the financial strain caused by this. Because gays make up such a small demographic (and even smaller one for gay couples who would raise children from infancy or childhood to adulthood), there is too much risk and not enough reward for the government to invest in legalising gay marriage. Simple economics.

quote:

If gays were allowed to marry, wouldn't that promote monogamy among gay people? Wouldn't monogamous gay relationships lower the chances of AIDS spreading around? I think so.

No, stopping the spread of AIDS would have to include shutting down bathhouses, gay sex bars, and other places of rampant homosexual sexual activities.

quote:

Besides, here's a little snippet of information for your eye holes. In America, lesbians have the lowest rate of HIV infection, Black females have the highest rate of infection. In fact, AIDS is the third leading cause of premature death in black women. Didn't know that did ya?

I'm really getting tired of hitting the P, R, O, & F keys.

quote:

The AIDS virus does not discriminate, you're an idiot for even thinking that. Anyone, including you, can get it.

Yes it does, you've spent too much time absorbing half truths from the media. Read "Bias" by Bernard Goldberg. He worked for CBS for 28 years and he details how the major media greatly exaggerated the AIDS threat to heterosexuals because they did not care that it was just happening to gays. The media made it seem like it could strike anyone, which was just not true.

quote:

Originally posted by AMF8:
reactionary, cut the crap.

For you, amf8, anything.

quote:

you really dont care about how gay marrige may "hurt the economy" or "spend your tax money wrong" or whatever.

So you're my Thought Police too? Who put you in charge of determining what I think?

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you just dont like homosexuals.

Not so. I have no problem with them, until they started stealing from the American taxpayer.

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anyone who opposes gay marrige because they think it will hurt the economy is full of it.

Says the self appointed Determiner of Character.

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basically they just think being gay is gross and dont want to deal with it as something that is accepted because they dont want to change.

Don't change the subject. You and I both know that legalizing gay marriage would kill the economy. Who's gonna pay for the benefits? Sure as hell not me, I don't have a thick enough wallet.

quote:

why are we debating this anyway? change will happen. in 50 yrs gays will be allowed to get married.

In Europe, yes.

quote:

in 50 yrs gays will be allowed to get married.

You don't know that.