From what I gather, the discussion is partly about the Church now???

I do hope that reactionary realizes that religion - especially not the Catholic Church - needs not to have a hand in deciding a government issue.

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Its still gonna be around, just like all the other bad choices.

Thank you for repeating what I just said and not explaining how society will cease to exist.

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Besides which party authored and voted over 90% for both of the civil rights acts?

It doesn't matter which party.

Liberalism: a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

You don't have to be a liberal to have liberalistic views on certain issues. Why is that so hard for you to digest?

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The millions of people having sex with animals?

Millions of people agree that homosexuality should be tolerated. Millions of people agree that gays should be allowed to marry. Millions of people (including Christians) don't agree with certain Christian morals.

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What illegal drugs (besides prescriptions, alcohol, and tobacco, I'm talking drugs that are illegal for everyone) were on the streets in 1950?

You tell me. You make an outragous statement, you have the burden of proving it.

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Haha, you and Eutrepe just contradicted each other on the same point? So which one is it? Is it preventable or not?

Well, I watch The Discovery Health Channel almost 24/7, and I have an obnoxious habit of using basic common sense. In some cases with heart disease, you could be genetically predisposed to it, but you can still prevent it if you exercise at least 30 minutes a day and eat a healthy diet that consists mainly of fruits, veggies and grains. But Americans don't do that. Most of us like cookies and ice cream, and twinkies, and hot dogs, and peach cobbler (mmmmmm...), and other crap that clogs our arteries. We know we shouldn't eat it, but we do anyway.

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Says who?

Me.

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Try morality, period.

My morals are different from yours. To me, what is natural, is moral. And I know nature, especially human nature, like the back of my hand.

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Alot of crazy things happen in your world, don't they?

Crazy is an understatment.

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According the NickJ's wildly fluctuating poll, most of Americans support abortion. Does the Church?

Wildly fluctuating? I gave you one poll.. You found the other by youself. And 7% difference is hardly wildly fluctuant.

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Try morality, period.

Morality is opinionated; therefore it is just against YOUR morals...

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I don't think that 20,650,000 people changed their opinions in 6 months.

What you don't think about could probably fill a warehouse, but the fact that the poll percentages dropped 7% is evident. And, actually, if you did your math right, it's actually, somewhere in the vacinity of 18,893,652... So, I'm actually really confused about what you are saying. Because you really made absolutely no sense right there...

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No it was a time of fighting communism, there worst ideology ever created.

Actually... I believe that the 50s was a time for fearing communism. What with the accusing people of being communists and communist spies, it was about like witchhunts...

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Which is why you're speaking out against the government today.

I am an individual. Society as a whole is in fear and panic because of terrorism. And, that's why many justify the war in Iraq because of the fear that if we don't kill off people in another country (i.e. if we don't see something done) then the terrorists will all move to america and kill everyone... It's evident how the government controls american society with fear, just look at the 'terror risk chart', the 5 color system... I, as an individual, do not fear terrorism, because to fear something as as fluid as that would be to fear going outside...

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If your ego was a space ship, it'd be on Mars.

I don't know if I'd call it ego, I think I might call it self-esteem, or self-belief. I hardly ever talk about myself because I don't like to give myself that image of being cocky or being egotistical. But, in this case, I needed to to prove a point...

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Under what charge? I'm just a harmless, lovable little fuzz ball.

I don't know... from what I can gather, you are kind of a nazi, hitler-esque, racist, homophobic type person... And it's been my experience that those type of people are the people who society keeps from doing anything drastic until one day they just snap and try to kill someone... But, that's just what I gather from talking to you online. I've never actually met you or anything, so...

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Since when is marriage an essential human right?

Well, perhaps 500 years ago, it was an essential human right, but society and civilization has evolved since then and these days, people are cultured and civilized enough (at least in the US) to not have slaves, etc. Nowadays, discrimination (especially with benefits/rights) is the slavery injustice of today...

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Why don't they take whats been offered to them? Benefits and tax breaks?

Because it's not equality. If they just took the benefits and tax breaks, you would still have more rights then them. Of course, you wouldn't mind that, because from what I'm hearing, you think you're better than them anyway...

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Why is governmental approval so important?

I don't think government approval is important. I think the problem here is government disapproval. The government needs to be indifferent of who gets married to whom. (between 2 consenting adults of course).

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You can't use that argument for homosexuality, because we don't have proof they were created like that.

I don't know. I would say that any gay person would tell you that they can't change who they are. Incidentally, as society is as it is right now: mocking of homosexuals, rejecting them, not giving rights, etc. Who would actually take in that discrimination, willingly? If it was just a choice, they would certainly choose to NOT be discriminated and to be liked by more because that is just simple human nature to want to be popular. So, I would say that there is enough proof there that they can't change the way they are, maybe if you talked, one on one, face to face, with a homosexual and kept an open mind (near impossible for you i'm sure) and forgot your reservations in regards to religion and whatnot and actually talked to them as a fellow human being and not scum (which, had you said that you knew some gay people, I'm sure that is how you would treat them), then maybe you could see past this and you could see that all they want is acceptance and to be happy... So, I would say my point is still valid. 'all men are created equal'

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No, the 50s, read my post on it before. And which party did the president who passed prohibition belong to?

What you said in your last post was this: "Not since the Roaring 20s (and never before or after), had the country been in such good shape." You were talking about the 50s, but you clearly stated about the 20s... I'm not sure who the president was who saw the passage of prohibition, (i'm guessing since you asked, he was republican), but that doesn't change the fact of why it was repealed...

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No it was a time of fighting communism, there worst ideology ever created.

Oh come on. We were afraid of it too. WHat about the red scare? The gov. just rounded up liberals and critics to the government. They were afraid that there would be mass anarchy.

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You can't use that argument for homosexuality, because we don't have proof they were created like that.

Even if people choose to be gay than why is it wrong? I did not choose to be straight. I just find myself attracted to certain males. I have a question for you. If it is proven that homosexuality is uncontrollable would you support gay marriage?

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The GOP has gone through an economic change, not a social one. Besides which party authored and voted over 90% for both of the civil rights acts?

That's a liberal move. Freeing the slaves was a liberal move. Republican does not equal conservative and democrat does not equal liberal.

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The millions of people having sex with animals?

Are you saying homosexual sex is like a person having sex with an animal?

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Originally posted by NickJ:
Interesting... I still noticed that 52% (a majority) said that it should be legal. So, according to your 'majority rule no matter what' rule, you shouldn't be complaining about abortion because majority think it's fine...

I don't think that 20,650,000 people changed their opinions in 6 months.

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The '50s were also the times of fearing communism.

No it was a time of fighting communism, there worst ideology ever created.

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Just like the government today has that strangle-hold, but this time the thing to be feared is terrorism...

Which is why you're speaking out against the government today.

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That's sad that YOU think that. Because even though I can't vote, I'm a very influential voice in my community and I can impact a lot of people, city and state wide. A few of my politicians even like to hear from me... A protest isn't meant to stop and change something right then and there, but it is meant to start some people thinking...

If your ego was a space ship, it'd be on Mars.

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Perhaps people like you should be too...

Under what charge? I'm just a harmless, lovable little fuzz ball.

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(or in this case, not give them essential human rights...)

Since when is marriage an essential human right?

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A) Why would the government be approving homosexual activity, if they allowed them to be married? Why can't the government be indifferent to who gets married, as long as their 2 consenting adults,

Why don't they take whats been offered to them? Benefits and tax breaks? Why is governmental approval so important?

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'all men created equal' and if what you say is true,

You can't use that argument for homosexuality, because we don't have proof they were created like that.

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the 20s? I believe that was the time of mass-drinking... Prohibition helped a little, but it was repealed because of cry-baby republicans whose big business companies were losing money and shutting down because of this idea that our country could be a little more healthier...

No, the 50s, read my post on it before. And which party did the president who passed prohibition belong to?

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Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
Like I said, homosexuality has been around since the beginning of Kingdom Animalia, longer than the bible and morality. And whether we accepted it or not, it was still around.

Its still gonna be around, just like all the other bad choices.

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I'm not a liberal. I just hate children. Besides, liberalism freed the slaves.

The GOP has gone through an economic change, not a social one. Besides which party authored and voted over 90% for both of the civil rights acts?

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I don't care about the government. I care about the millions of people who agree with me.

The millions of people having sex with animals?

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You're going to have to prove that, because I don't believe that one bit.

What illegal drugs (besides prescriptions, alcohol, and tobacco, I'm talking drugs that are illegal for everyone) were on the streets in 1950?

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Because Americans smoke too much and eat too many high-fat, low-fiber foods. We could choose not to, but we don't.

Haha, you and Eutrepe just contradicted each other on the same point? So which one is it? Is it preventable or not?

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Dead serious. I have so much animal porn on my computer, it's almost sad.

No its not almost.

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Well, we won't be.

Says who?

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Why not? Because it's against Christian morals?

Try morality, period.

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Not in my world.

Alot of crazy things happen in your world, don't they?

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Originally posted by Euterpe:
Because they would have been killed otherwise. There were not the hate-crime laws like there are today. And, it was common for adult males to sodomize young Greek boys in Ancient Greece. So, you know, homosexual acceptance has come in and out of fashion.

Ancient Greece was just one big NAMBLA orgy.

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Proof #18365192 Conservatism leaves no room for satirical remarks.
Proof #18365193 Conservatives have a disabled sense of humor.

Haha, Eg wasn't joking, and I knew it.

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Sickening 60's?

What, did I stutter?

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Damn equal rights for everyone!

No, special rights for the some. AA isn't just for boozers anymore.

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That sounded a tad fascist, my friend.

No, imposing it would be borderline fascist.

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The country was in good shape? The 50's were rife with growing and bubbled over hysteria over communism. Anyone you disliked, you called a communist and ruined their livelihood, Democrat, Republican, etc., it knew no political affiliation, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion. The country was in horrible shape, with rife corruption in office and mass hysteria gripping the nation. Along with the growing threat of a Vietnam conflict. That image of sock hops and soda pops is VERY, VERY wrong.

You mean people like Hiss and the Rosenbergs?

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When was the last time it didn't lead to a social change?

Now?

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Not the "right side," the popular side. America was largely pro-equal rights, and so was the Church. The Church would become out-of-fashion if it wasn't, given the semi-liberal state of the country at the point. They couldn't risk that loss of power.

Loss of power? The Church has no power in the government, only influence. The Church has always (well, maybe not the Catholic Church) stood on ideological rock, liberals sand.

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Now with rabid conservatism,

This isn't rabid conservatism, this is conservatism.

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and the GOP controlling much of the gov't, the Church is siding with the majority.

Did the Church side with the Democratic Majority in the '60s? No, they stood firm on their principles and reactionary organizations such as the Moral Majority were founded and changed the political landscape.

[QUOTE}Again. And if, by some weird dip in the universe, should the majority of America want gay rights? The church will suddenly begin to condemn anti-gay protestors and embrace gays. That's how the Church works.[/QUOTE]
According the NickJ's wildly fluctuating poll, most of Americans support abortion. Does the Church?

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I'm too lazy to scroll up and make a new number, but get a sense of humor or grasp of sarcasm, reactionary.

If only that were true...

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Proof #13638: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Michael Savage said that. Anyone who is familiar with that dude knows that he isn't right in the head.

Lol, I'm done here. This obviously gets nowhere pretty fast. ::Shrugs.:: I'll be pro-gay marriage and pro-abortion my entire life, and I'd except anti-gay marriage and pro-lifers won't change either.

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Here's something interesting, looks like America had a 7% mood swing in 6 months:

Interesting... I still noticed that 52% (a majority) said that it should be legal. So, according to your 'majority rule no matter what' rule, you shouldn't be complaining about abortion because majority think it's fine...

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Proof #13638: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Hmm... I've heard all of the really brilliant geniuses had a mental disorder of some kind...

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What a tradgedy! The 1950s were the times of Pax Americana.

The '50s were also the times of fearing communism. Back then it was how the government controlled the citizens with a strangle-hold of fear. Just like the government today has that strangle-hold, but this time the thing to be feared is terrorism...

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Our say doesn't matter now! No one important is reading our debate. We can't vote, or make any other important change beyond the local level.When was the last time a protest changed something?

That's sad that YOU think that. Because even though I can't vote, I'm a very influential voice in my community and I can impact a lot of people, city and state wide. A few of my politicians even like to hear from me... A protest isn't meant to stop and change something right then and there, but it is meant to start some people thinking...

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People like that should be locked up and never see the light of day again.

Perhaps people like you should be too... It's a pattern, anyone who disagrees with you, or anyone who does something that you disapprove of, your suggestion is to "lock 'em up" or take away their rights, (or in this case, not give them essential human rights...)

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No, the legalization of gay marriage will result in the governmental approval of homosexual activity, something which cannot happen.

A) Why would the government be approving homosexual activity, if they allowed them to be married? Why can't the government be indifferent to who gets married, as long as their 2 consenting adults, it shouldn't matter. Justice is supposed to be blind, so that when she marries 2 people, she shouldn't be able to see what gender they are...

B) So what if the government did approve of homosexual activity? If what you say is true, that any law/statute passed means that the government means that it has the government's approval, then the government would approve of heterosexual marriage. Thus bringing in the unequity and injustice of 'all men created equal' and if what you say is true, even though justice is blind, had she had eyes, she would not be able to look herself in the mirror in the morning...

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no one used drugs

the 20s? I believe that was the time of mass-drinking... Prohibition helped a little, but it was repealed because of cry-baby republicans whose big business companies were losing money and shutting down because of this idea that our country could be a little more healthier...

Have a pleasant day!

Reactionary knows deep down that he doesn't have a leg to stand on and is basing all his arguments on his own paranoia.

Yup. My power makes all others obsolete. He fails to respond once again!

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Because it was never promoted like it is today? Here's why it hasn't stopped society; look to your 6th paragraph. It was celebrated like it is today. Back in the good old days, gays were kept in the closet, not on main street.

Like I said, homosexuality has been around since the beginning of Kingdom Animalia, longer than the bible and morality. And whether we accepted it or not, it was still around.

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Like what?

Depends on the resource.

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Proof #13638: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

I'm not a liberal. I just hate children. Besides, liberalism freed the slaves.

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The GOP controls the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch, and is about to fully control the Judicial Branch.

I don't care about the government. I care about the millions of people who agree with me.

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The way it should be.

It's only human to be sexually curious.

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no one used drugs

You're going to have to prove that, because I don't believe that one bit.

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No one important is reading our debate.

Thank God.

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So why are they killing more Americans individually than AIDS?

Because Americans smoke too much and eat too many high-fat, low-fiber foods. We could choose not to, but we don't.

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You're kidding right? You can't be serious...

Dead serious. I have so much animal porn on my computer, it's almost sad.

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People like that should be locked up and never see the light of day again.

Well, we won't be. Get over it.

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No, the legalization of gay marriage will result in the governmental approval of homosexual activity, something which cannot happen.

Why not? Because it's against Christian morals?

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Bet He beats ya to the punch.

Not in my world.

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but get a sense of humor or grasp of sarcasm, reactionary.

I wasn't joking.

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Originally posted by reactionary05:
Because it was never promoted like it is today? Here's why it hasn't stopped society; look to your 6th paragraph. It was celebrated like it is today. Back in the good old days, gays were kept in the closet, not on main street.

Because they would have been killed otherwise. There were not the hate-crime laws like there are today. And, it was common for adult males to sodomize young Greek boys in Ancient Greece. So, you know, homosexual acceptance has come in and out of fashion.

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Proof #13638: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Proof #18365192 Conservatism leaves no room for satirical remarks.
Proof #18365193 Conservatives have a disabled sense of humor.

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What happens everytime a society of immorality goes to far? A backlash, a reaction. You force your agenda too far down the majority's throat, and they become reactionaries. We can see the reaction all around. The GOP controls the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch, and is about to fully control the Judicial Branch. This has never happened before. The Republican Party has never had more power in the American government than it has now. Your movement is a throwback to the sickening sixties, another reactionary movement to the '50s.

Sickening 60's? Damn equal rights for everyone!

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The way it should be.

That sounded a tad fascist, my friend.

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What a tradgedy! The 1950s were the times of Pax Americana. Not since the Roaring 20s (and never before or after), had the country been in such good shape. Crime was low, no one used drugs, the Democratic Party still believed in defending America.

The country was in good shape? The 50's were rife with growing and bubbled over hysteria over communism. Anyone you disliked, you called a communist and ruined their livelihood, Democrat, Republican, etc., it knew no political affiliation, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion. The country was in horrible shape, with rife corruption in office and mass hysteria gripping the nation. Along with the growing threat of a Vietnam conflict. That image of sock hops and soda pops is VERY, VERY wrong.

Never had America been so repressed and walked on so many eggshells in fear for their life.

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Our say doesn't matter now! No one important is reading our debate. We can't vote, or make any other important change beyond the local level.When was the last time a protest changed something?

When was the last time it didn't lead to a social change?

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It was the Church! Who was Martin Luther King Jr? A Baptist Minister! Who helped organize marches and apply political pressure? The norther Lutheran Church! In America, the Church has always been on the right side of social issues, and this will not change.

Not the "right side," the popular side. America was largely pro-equal rights, and so was the Church. The Church would become out-of-fashion if it wasn't, given the semi-liberal state of the country at the point. They couldn't risk that loss of power.

Now with rabid conservatism, and the GOP controlling much of the gov't, the Church is siding with the majority. Again. And if, by some weird dip in the universe, should the majority of America want gay rights? The church will suddenly begin to condemn anti-gay protestors and embrace gays. That's how the Church works.

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So why are they killing more Americans individually than AIDS?

Because AIDS is a (largely) preventable disease, while heart disease (sometimes) and cancer is not. If people would smarten up and use protection and get tested, AIDS would be nearly defunct.

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People like that should be locked up and never see the light of day again.

I'm too lazy to scroll up and make a new number, but get a sense of humor or grasp of sarcasm, reactionary.

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No, the legalization of gay marriage will result in the governmental approval of homosexual activity, something which cannot happen.

Because the world will fold in on itself if it does and the orbits will run backward and there will be a rain of fire, plague of locusts and leprechauns dancing in the fields of destruction. Oh my, was that sarcasm?

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Bet He beats ya to the punch.

Hmm, bet old age or disease beats Him.

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Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
Theeeeeeennnnnn........ Why hasn't society already ceased to exist? Homosexual relationships have been around since the beginning of Kingdom Animalia.

Because it was never promoted like it is today? Here's why it hasn't stopped society; look to your 6th paragraph. It was celebrated like it is today. Back in the good old days, gays were kept in the closet, not on main street.

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I never said we were.

Then don't make accusations about us "bulldozing the forests."

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Maybe, but when we deplete a natural resource other problems can arise.

Like what?

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If we produce as much food as you say, one and a half pounds of chicken breasts shouldn't cost me $11.

E-c-o-n-o-m-i-c-s. A $17,000 car doesn't cost the manufactor $16,999 to make. An interesting fact: for an average priced product, divide the product price by 10, and you have the manufactoring cost.

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Good question. I honestly think we should just be allowed to throw babies into woodchippers.

Proof #13638: Liberalism is a mental disorder.

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You don't because you're too blind to see how teenagers today under the voting age are becoming more and more rebellious and accepting of gay people, regardless of their religion.

What happens everytime a society of immorality goes to far? A backlash, a reaction. You force your agenda too far down the majority's throat, and they become reactionaries. We can see the reaction all around. The GOP controls the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch, and is about to fully control the Judicial Branch. This has never happened before. The Republican Party has never had more power in the American government than it has now. Your movement is a throwback to t