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Oh look, Christians doing bad things! Should we punish them, too?

The reality is that there have been instances in the past where misguided Christians have done bad things in the name of religion, and Christians still do bad things in the name of religion two. My point was not to clam that Christians had a perfect past, because they don’t. But the Bible douse not command its followers to go about killing people, and so people who do so are clearly acting against the teachings of the Bible.
Muslims on the other hand, do have a basses for there violence.
Qur'an:9:5[QUOTE]]"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." [/QUOTE
Yeah clpo13 that really sounds like self defense to me.
Am I saying that all Muslims are Evil terrorists? No, I am saying that Islam as a religion has some problems, and that the leaders of this religion need to come out publicly and command Muslims to stop spreading Islam threw death.
So do you study Islam much or just the good parts?

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And yet, the REALITY is... Iraq - Muslims butchering muslims... raping euros, crime... bombings. Using children and women during a Jihad - EXPRESSEDLY forbiden. And yet?

Oh look, Christians doing bad things! Should we punish them, too?

I don't understand why you're not listening: punish the ones who do bad, but don't assume others of their religion will do the same. I'm not saying anyone should get a free ticket out of jail simply for being a Muslim. I'm saying that the ones killing people are acting outside the norm. Would you target all dogs simply because you were bitten by a Dachshund?

In the case of the Muslims invading Europe, the Christians had every right to fight back in order to save their way of life (just as the Muslims had every right to fight back against the Crusades). I have a very difficult time understanding where you got that I would have the Christians lay down and take it. I'm also not a liberal. Why must everyone assume I'm that?

So, don't punish all practitioners of a religion for the actions of a minority group. Instead, punish that group alone. Until you understand that, I have little else to say to you.

Ah, but wait! I seem to have missed that you refuse to understand that. Instead, you insist on twisting my words to mean the exact opposite of what I mean. Again, I must refer you to my hypothetical situation that involves Christians killing people. By your odd logic, I should be wary of any Christian I meet just in case he accuses me of being homosexual and lynches me. That, my friend, would be a sad, sad life. As your Islamophobic one apparently is. (Oh no, a guy with a turban! Arrest him before he blows us all up! Never mind that it's clear he doesn't have any explosives on him!)

Now that I finally understand your paranoia, I'm laughing at you. It's too hard for you to accept that most people aren't going to kill you, so you just assume everyone is intending to slit your throat or blow things up, is that it? I'd rather be a namby-pamby liberal than live my life in fear of an entire faith the majority of which really has no quarrel with me. Ah, good times. I haven't ribbed an Islamaphobe in a long time. I was trying to stay serious just in case you were somehow missing my point, but now that I see what you really think, I realize that rational debate will accomplish nothing. So I'm going to have a bit of fun at your expense. I hope you don't mind.

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Now let’s look at Muhammad, who spread his religion by the sword and advocated his followers to do the same. Muhammad beheaded his enemies, and conquered the surrounding area for Allah.

Muhammad lived in a time where non-Christians were burned at the stake. Jesus also lived during a time such as that, but Jesus was also killed in his thirties. Muhammad lived to die peacefully in his bed. Why? Because he fought back against those who persecuted him for his religion. Study Islam much, or just the bad parts?

The Prophet fought because the whole area he was preaching to (which was full of pissed, tribal pagans not his own people and the occasional bunch of romans) were actively trying to kill him oh and have you heard of the crusades? who's your violent religion there if you wanna talk holy wars. Hell the catholics had 100 year long crusades. The muslim extremists are nothing compared to that. Oh and while I'm at the past of christianity let's look at the spanish inquistion. Islam has done nothing of the sort. Oh and inditments there's an intresting way to serve God. Give us cash and we'll free you of sin.

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the crusades were really more about the corrupt church wanting more power, and European economics then it was about Christianity.

same with the jihad of today. It's a bunch of greedy men twisting good and holy words to their own devices

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In fact the closer to the teachings of the Koran you are the more violent you will be.

have you even read the Qu'ran? I think not from the way you speak of it. I have and it's only as violent and violenence supporting as the old testement

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Today in Muslim countries if you try to leave the religion of Islam you are killed,

No Evidence + Dumbass Belief placed in to skull by US Media = BS

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First of all the account of the crusades is politicized in most history books, making them sound more violent then they really were,

wrong. The christian atrocites were toned down and the muslim one's increased 1000 fold it's called propaganda and because the christians were the ones doing the writing their BS became history

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why shape your views of a religion on the views of the extremists?

exactly. it's like saying "christians are dangerous because some of them kill doctors and fire bomb abortion clinics. therefore all christians are bad"

I say unto you to go and learn young nephilem because you have only listened to the biased views of the weak minded instead od actually getting information

Your right let’s not shape our views of religions on the extremists, instead let’s shape our views on the religions on what the founders of those religions said and did.
Jesus lived a humble life helping people, and even people who dispute his divinity say that he was a good man, and teacher. So the picture of Jesus is not a bad one.
Now let’s look at Muhammad, who spread his religion by the sword and advocated his followers to do the same. Muhammad beheaded his enemies, and conquered the surrounding area for Allah.
Quite a striking difference. So based on the two religions founders, which would you say sounds like a religion of violence?

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Also lets not just look at Christianity’s past lets look at the past of Islam as well, because Islam defiantly has a very troubled past.

They both do. ALL RELIGIONS DO!. But why shape your views of a religion on the views of the extremists?

First of all who said I was getting all up tight, and defensive.
The point is that the Bible dose not advocates a holly war neither did Jesus, however the same is not true when it comes to Moslems. Also I never said that the crusaders were perfect I was simply saying that the crusades weren’t just the fault of Christians.

Also lets not just look at Christianity’s past lets look at the past of Islam as well, because Islam defiantly has a very troubled past.

Look how defensive you get when I judged your religion based on its corrupt past.

I know they were about economic gain but they were held in the name if Christianity. Oh snap, doesn't this sound familiar?

First of all the account of the crusades is politicized in most history books, making them sound more violent then they really were, leaving out Moslem atrocities because it would be politically incorrect to include them and leaving out the part when the Islamic warriors came in and killed the Christians and Jews that had the land in the first place. Secondly the crusades were really more about the corrupt church wanting more power, and European economics then it was about Christianity.

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*Cough*crusades*cough*

*sticks a spoon full of medicine on LTR's mouth*

There, there. Good point though.

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Just look at Muhammad who spread his religion threw violence, basically a convert or Die approach.

*Cough*crusades*cough*

While many claim Islam is fundamentally a religion of peace, it is not. In fact the closer to the teachings of the Koran you are the more violent you will be. Just look at Muhammad who spread his religion threw violence, basically a convert or Die approach.

Today in Muslim countries if you try to leave the religion of Islam you are killed, and women are basically reduced to the level of slaves to their husbands.

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Uh - close. I AM a pacifist but I'm a pacifist Muslim, something you probably didn't know existed. And in case you were wondering, no, I have no interest in raping your people. Maybe later.

Ahahahahahaaa! Nice Sphinx. I just want to say my respects to you. Your posts are intelligent, yet you take your time to be funny. :P

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And yet, the REALITY is... Iraq - Muslims butchering muslims... raping euros, crime... bombings. Using children and women during a Jihad - EXPRESSEDLY forbiden. And yet?

Iraq cannot be used as an example of regular Muslim behaviour. Iraq has basically no functioning government to speak of, there is no control and so the next logical step is for there to be complete anarchy. If the US were now to invade a Christian country, dismount it's government and try to immediatedly instate a new one with major changes in the constitution, you would also have anarchy. It's not a Muslim trait, it's just common sense.

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Well I don't care what the Koran says, but this does look very much in their favour doesn't it? The 'Holy Land'? They may just go, "Well, as Allah is all mighty, and the Earth is his, perhaps the Earth is our holy land? Invade Europe! Leave your guns, you don't need them."

Islam has always had 2 main holy sites, including the lands surrounding them: The Ka'ba in Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and the AlAqsa mosque in Jerusalem (Palestine). I've never heard of a Muslim claiming anywhere else as a holy site, so there's no need to get all paranoid.

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Really? Enjoy...
I like the one that says, "Somalia: Anybody found out to be a Christian will quickly be beheaded by Muslim vigilantes, Marshall said."
Reality, my dear.

Fine, let's go through this list one by one. There are no countries where Muslims are allowed to go on Christian killing sprees.
Bangaldesh and Pakistan: In both cases, Christians are being persecuted unlawfully and the government is opposed to it. AKA, they are not being attacked freely, they are being attacked by the same kind of redneck people who might kill someone for being black. It's discrimination, but it's punishable by law and being carried out by a very small minority of people.
Sudan, Somalia :There is no governmental control, and there are casualities on every side, not just the Christian side. This is just another case of chaos where lots of people are being killed.
Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria: I'll give you Saudi Arabia, that country is run by a bunch of psychos who completely distort what Islam is about and use it as a way to control their people and to steal money. But the examples listed for Egypt and Nigeria are just politics.

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You fail to hide that you wouldn't mind if Islam took Europe
You are a peacefull warrior for your faith my dear. Keep the Europeans at bay with your words of rights and peace and tolerance, while your people slowly take Europe. They won't be stopped at Vienna and Spain this time, will they?

Wow... paranoid much? No, I wouldn't mind if Islam spread in Europe, just like I wouldn't mind it spreading anywhere else. I like Islam, I think it's a great religion and I think it would be great if more people embraced it. I'm sure you think that your religion (I'm assuming Christianity, but who knows) is the best religion ever and would love it if everyone else shared it. We all think our religion is the only right one.
Here's where you start getting crazy. We are not interested in 'taking' Europe. It's not like right now Europe is in the hands of the Christians; Europe is in the hands of the EUROPEANS. You're thinking in weird terms of religious war like everyone is coming at you from all sides. Has it ever occurred to you that sometimes people just want to exist near you, not rape you and forcefully convert you, but really just live next door to you?

How bout I throw a list of things Christian governments and fanatics have done at you and then accuse you of being on their side, let's see how you like that. Here's some history for you. And no one uses these facts as an excuse to hate Christians because they KNOW that they were in the past or carried out by minorities.

*Christian mobs, sometimes with government support, destroyed pagan temples and oppressed adherents of paganism (such as the philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria, who was murdered by a Christian mob)
*Jewish communities have periodically suffered violence at Christian hands
*Christian governments persecuted groups seen as heretical
*The Inquisition
*Witch trials and the consequental burning alive of medicinal women
*Bombing of abortion clinics and taking innoccent doctors' lives, along with their patients (and ironically, those patients' unborn children)
*Hate crimes carried out against homosexuals and transexuals

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If you knew the slightest bit about it, you'd realize that violence, including rape, is very much a no-no.

And yet, the REALITY is... Iraq - Muslims butchering muslims... raping euros, crime... bombings. Using children and women during a Jihad - EXPRESSEDLY forbiden. And yet?
They don't get away with the bad things they do because their book says that that don't do it.

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Considering what you've said thus far, I'm compelled to pose to you a hypothetical situation of my own: let's say a small portion of Christianity feels the need to kill people who don't agree with them, i.e. homosexuals, atheists, heretics, etc. In other words, they do generally nasty things that conflict with the basic teachings of Christianity. And they're a minority.

Now, does this mean that all of Christianity is to blame for the actions of this tiny minority? No, of course not. Surely you would agree to this. Christian teachings are very non-violent, so anyone committing acts of violence in the name of Christianity is acting well outside the mainstream and should not be considered to be part of Christianity.

The people who are victims of this are well within there rights to right back. And to fight back at Christians. I will remind you sir that the Christians did indeed send crusades into Muslim lands. Likewise, the Muslims took Spain and got as far as Vienna before being driven out of Europe. Had the Christians of the time entertained the liberal namby-pamby attitude you do towards the Muslims, the Pope would be an Imam.

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Muhammad allowed Muslims to defend themselves against the Christian and Jewish colonies and drive them out of the holy land.

Well I don't care what the Koran says, but this does look very much in their favour doesn't it? The 'Holy Land'? They may just go, "Well, as Allah is all mighty, and the Earth is his, perhaps the Earth is our holy land? Invade Europe! Leave your guns, you don't need them."

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Criticize the ones who do bad but don't pass that on to the rest of the group.

You'll entertain this to the ends of the earth I know. Can you single out the people in an Invading army, who have killed someone? Do they have a big arrow hovering above their heads? Therefore, you can't shoot any of them, because they may not have done bad.
Do you really think policing fixes the Muslims crimes that easily? Do you think the criminals have arrows above their heads? The muslims have it so easy. Rape, murder and steal with a balaclava. Then return to your muslim ghetto. Then when the native police come after you, yell "RACIST!" at the top of your lungs.

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So no, you're just making shit up and that's completely untrue.

Really? Enjoy...
I like the one that says, "Somalia: Anybody found out to be a Christian will quickly be beheaded by Muslim vigilantes, Marshall said."
Reality, my dear.

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"I wouldn't go as far as to say that they've been completely peaceful, but that's another topic."
"You don't become any less of a patriot if you're a Muslim... If you cared about Europe before, you'll care about it after conversion."
"I AM a pacifist but I'm a pacifist Muslim"

Ah, now I understand what you are. In my statement about nazis and jews you speak of the non-peacefullness of the jews. You fail to hide that you wouldn't mind if Islam took Europe. And you reveal you are muslim.
You are a peacefull warrior for your faith my dear. Keep the Europeans at bay with your words of rights and peace and tolerance, while your people slowly take Europe. They won't be stopped at Vienna and Spain this time, will they?

Don't just disappear, if you have something to say on the subject say it. We can't learn from each other if you just shut up when people disagree with you (even if they're right)

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Europeans are a dwindling, Muslims are a booming.

They're still Europeans. Would you consider a French buddhist or a British atheist any less of a European than a French or British Christian? You don't become any less of a patriot if you're a Muslim... If you cared about Europe before, you'll care about it after conversion.

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I guess the Nazi attitude towards the Jews (who unlike the Muslims, have been nothing but peacefull) was not racial prejudice, as Judaism is just a religon.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that they've been completely peaceful, but that's another topic.

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I will remind you sir, that in the Muslim countries Christians are freely attacked, but in the Christian countries the Muslims are defended at all costs - Unconditional Tolerance.

Ok A- I'm a girl. B- I live in a Muslim country and no, Christians are not attacked freely. In fact Christians are treated as complete equals and have the exact same rights and opportunities as the Muslims and everyone else have. Shocking as this may be to you, Arabs and Muslims are generally really accepting and nonjudgemental. I have Christian friends, Muslim friends, and a lot of friends who don't know where they are spiritually and it doesn't affect our relationships. So no, you're just making shit up and that's completely untrue.

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Ah! You are a pacifist. I understand now. No fighting back or violence in self defence. Its much better for the Muslims to have their way than to stop them.

Uh - close. I AM a pacifist but I'm a pacifist Muslim, something you probably didn't know existed. And in case you were wondering, no, I have no interest in raping your people. Maybe later.

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Muslims ARE immigrating en masse into Europe, they DO refuse to integrate into the native cultures, and they DO attack the natives.

Wait, wait, wait. What, may I ask, is wrong with their refusal to be assimilated into native cultures? Aren't you the poster child for keeping races separate and celebrating differences?

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You are saying that unless a group has a majority of do bad-ers, its wrong to criticise them.

Exactly. Criticize the ones who do bad but don't pass that on to the rest of the group. This is especially true in Islam. If you knew the slightest bit about it, you'd realize that violence, including rape, is very much a no-no. Of course, different interpretations can lead to instances where rape may appear all right, but that's not the fault of Islam itself; rather it's the fault of a extremely fundamentalist clerics.

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If your wife or daughter was gang raped by muslims, or your son killed by a muslim, you'd have a hard time holding back your natural male humanity.

Indeed I wouldn't. But my wrath would be centered on the ones who committed the crimes. I wouldn't go out and shoot everyone vaguely resembling Muslims.

Considering what you've said thus far, I'm compelled to pose to you a hypothetical situation of my own: let's say a small portion of Christianity feels the need to kill people who don't agree with them, i.e. homosexuals, atheists, heretics, etc. In other words, they do generally nasty things that conflict with the basic teachings of Christianity. And they're a minority.

Now, does this mean that all of Christianity is to blame for the actions of this tiny minority? No, of course not. Surely you would agree to this. Christian teachings are very non-violent, so anyone committing acts of violence in the name of Christianity is acting well outside the mainstream and should not be considered to be part of Christianity.

Likewise, the tiny minority (comparatively) of Muslims who blow things up, rape Swedish women, and riot at the slightest provocation are not representative of Islam as a whole. Islam is as much a peaceful religion as Christianity, although interpretations of it can lead to horrific acts of violence. For instance, there is a section in the Qu'ran where violence against Christians and Jews appears to be condoned. This is a section often quoted by those wishing to prove Islam to be a terroristic religion.

However, that section is taken completely out of context. The Christians and Jews the Qu'ran refers to were small groups living in Arabia during the time of Muhammad who often attacked Muslims or tried to forcibly convert them. In order to protect his people, Muhammad allowed Muslims to defend themselves against the Christian and Jewish colonies and drive them out of the holy land. But this did not extend to Jews or Christians outside of the holy land (Arabia). Only extremist interpretations say that.

Hopefully you understand what I'm saying.

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The sheiks are good men, they are not guilty of evil, and thats unjustifyable prejudice.

Eh..I think Syd was being sarcastic there with her comment.

My bad, the Sikhs are good men.