Okay when I began reading your post, I was trying to have some empathy. But as I finished, I realized that you globalized way too much. First of all, punk and/or goth is a state of mind...not some mere clothing statement. Gothic represents a sense of darkness and mystery. Don't believe me? Look up the word in the dictionary. And it doesn't nessecarily have to include devil-worshipping. Punk people are those who are considered misfits or rebels without a cause. They don't care about what others think of them. These two groups are often misinterpreted because of their vague guidelines to fitting in. Some of those who dress or put an act on to look like them, often cause controversy over the Punk and Goth group in general. This is totally wrong. I myself am begining to become a Punk-Goth type of person. I like to keep to myself at times, I'm mysterious, quiet, like dark colors, like rock-metal music, and I'm kinda depressing. At the same time I can be loud and obnoxious, not caring what others think of me. But either way I don't care about some dumb label...I am who I am, whether people agree or not. I may not seem like the type of person I say I am because 1) I'm an A-B student, 2) I like almost all kinds of music, 3) I have the appearance of a "good girl" (when actually I'm not, trust me) 4) I'm a virgin 5) I go to church...need I go on?? No...I think you get the point.

dont generalize like that, its not fair to do that to any group like i think there r cool people in every group... first of all as many others stated they r gonna be mean, *****y, unaccepting people in every so called group, but also remember outside of high school there is another world. But the punk goth rocker group i think is misunderstood... u cant make generalizations like that cuz there i no 1 type of person and personalities in any group... my friends and i r put in that group but personally i think the labeling group thing is stupid i just think im a person and have no group we dont try 2 be something we r not and r friends w/ peeps in other groups and r accepting and just r who we r the reason i think we r in that group is cuz we like going to concerts and see cool up and coming rock bands play and like 2 listen 2 Bob Marely, Chevele, Godsmack, Taking back sunday, etc. and other cool bands. We just like punk rock and metal... and about hot topic i dont even go there its ridicously overpriced i prefer vintage clothes and some of my friends make cool clothes they give me... and its not really about what u wear its about the music and concerts and the attitude of not caring what any1 else thinks.... yeh well im done ranting im supposed 2be somewhere now...bye

dunno I've never found either punks or goths particularly accepting, and I'm supposed to be a fairly authentic punk,

but then to tell the truth the majority of the members of both groups are unually pretentious gits.

but then its usually the kids who are in 'a phase', usually when they grow up, they grow out of it, or they just grow up and become a little bit more mature about everything.

There are going to be materialistic, cliquey people in every group there is. And most of those people don't think that they are materialistic and cliquey. It's about as simple as that. On another note...Hot Topic...eww..there is no sense in paying that much for clothes, most of which aren't unique and are pretty stupid looking. I prefer Goodwill.

I do think that the idea of being a punk, in fashion terms, has lost its meaning because the style has become so mainstream that it no longer seems edgy or rebellious. It's just another fashion. A lot of my friends who dress in a punk style don't even listen to punk music, whereas I don't dress punk particularly but I'm really into that sort of sound. You're right in that 'punks' are all over the place. There's nothing greatly inventive or unique about it now… Goth fashion though, at least around where I live, still isn't particularly widespread.

I'd hesitate to condemn all 'punks' and 'goths' like you seem to be… They're just people and some are more superficial than others. Actions speak louder than clothing!

Bex