quote:Previously you said: “In a rape of an actual Israeli woman, she and her rapist are put to death. Seems like the slave has it pretty good, in fact,” because neither you nor I could prove whether this slave was an Israeli citizen. Can’t make up that mind of yours, huh?
It doesn't really matter. A slave is a slave, in that position for a reason. Meh.
quote:Actually, Jews -do- accept Christ as a prophet, just not as the son of God.
My point.
quote:As a guide for what?
quote:, no specific laws to govern living day-to-day life were laid out in the New Testament.
As a source of specific laws to live by.
quote:Yes, until you can prove otherwise.
Nope, they're illogical arguments until you can prove them. How I love arguing like this.....
quote: Must be those dang degraded moral values. Curse 'em.
Maybe
quote: They are, slaves are not supposed to be beaten, tortured, or forced to work in lusy conditions.
Previously you said: “In a rape of an actual Israeli woman, she and her rapist are put to death. Seems like the slave has it pretty good, in fact,” because neither you nor I could prove whether this slave was an Israeli citizen. Can’t make up that mind of yours, huh?
quote: Not really. Christians and Jews have the Same God to worship-Jews just choose not to accept Christ
Actually, Jews -do- accept Christ as a prophet, just not as the son of God.
quote: As is such, Christians use the Old Testament as a guide. Whether this is correct or not, I ain't sure.
quote:Actually, it's completely different. Punishment was different; the crime was viewed less-harsh as opposed to a foreigner who committed the same crimes; etc.
Granted, the punishment for an Israeli is less than that of a foreigner doing the same. However, I still can't see the issue with a slave being raped. Must be those dang degraded moral values. Curse 'em.
quote:: "My basic point is that your Bible justifies a raping because the person was a slave, yet in Exodus 23:4-5 which I already posted, it contradicts itself saying that slaves should be treated with kindness and equality." Voila; there's your contradiction.
They are, slaves are not supposed to be beaten, tortured, or forced to work in lusy conditions. Heck, I think every fifty years (give or take) there was a holiday in which, among other things, all slaves are released. Keep them coming..
quote:I'm not talking about Judaism. That's a completely different religion-different topic. Why do any Christians follow the Old Testament? Why is it disregarded by many Christians? Isn't the entire Bible God's word? If so, why disregard part of it? Hmm.
I'll take this sentence by sentence. 1/2)Not really. Christians and Jews have the Same God to worship-Jews just choose not to accept Christ. 3)Because, no specific laws to govern living day-to-day life were laid out in the New Testament. As is such, Christians use the Old Testament as a guide. Whether this is correct or not, I ain't sure.
quote:The Universe could have been an implement of an Invisible Purple Unicorn.
There's your god
quote:How about we just disperse them all over Canada instead? Oh wait.. you're from there, eh?
Believe it (or not), living conditions aren't that bad up here yet.
quote:I'm simply providing you with more logical information,
quote:Other "occurrences" in the Bible such as the sea parting are all myth. There is an obvious contradiction between these excerpts and the rest of the Bible. The Bible is NOT history; it’s myth
quote: You could have just called me stupid outright.
I don't think you're stupid; we just have differing opinions.
quote: Question, have you read the Bible, or do you pull quotes off anti-religion websites?
Yes. I have read the Bible; most of it, anyway. Still reading it today. It's good reading material. I used to be Catholic, so I read the Bible for Church. Now I read it as pleasure, though I find it all purely fiction.
quote: And an Israeli enslaved for crime is equovical to an enemy.
Actually, it's completely different. Punishment was different; the crime was viewed less-harsh as opposed to a foreigner who committed the same crimes; etc.
quote: Simply telling this to me doesn't prove anything. Show me the contradiction.
No problem. Originally I said: "My basic point is that your Bible justifies a raping because the person was a slave, yet in Exodus 23:4-5 which I already posted, it contradicts itself saying that slaves should be treated with kindness and equality." Voila; there's your contradiction.
quote: To guide the Jews, who are a bit muddled on the whole Jesus thing
I'm not talking about Judaism. That's a completely different religion-different topic. Why do any Christians follow the Old Testament? Why is it disregarded by many Christians? Isn't the entire Bible God's word? If so, why disregard part of it? Hmm.
quote: Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
Exactly
quote: In a nutshell, there needs to be a God in order for anything to exist.
Why does a god have to be the cause of what you don't understand? The Universe could have been an implement of an Invisible Purple Unicorn. We don't know that. Nothing can validate religion.
quote: For criminals, it would be fitting today. Hard slave labour in Alaska....that's the ticket.
How about we just disperse them all over Canada instead? Oh wait.. you're from there, eh?
quote: And, you can stop dithering about the Bible being irreverent, or only made so people could feel good, or other Atheist rhetoric. It doesn't go very far.
quote: Everyone's entitled to an opinion
That's MY opinion, and I believe it was fabricated to give people hope that something can make their lives better and lessen their suffering. And FYI- it's not meant to "go far," I'm simply providing you with more logical information, because religion is completely unreliable and science cannot support it.
quote:To show that the things you may believe to be true are not always fact. That was why I mentioned it.
You could have just called me stupid outright.
quote:Okay, before I go any further, I'd like to ask one simple question: have you even read the Bible? The Israelis DID enslave their own people for being in debt, stealing, etc
Not all of it, I'm more of the NTestament type. Question, have you read the Bible, or do you pull quotes off anti-religion websites? And an Israeli enslaved for crime is equovical to an enemy.
quote:Re-read the excerpts. There is an obvious contradiction between these excerpts and the rest of the Bible.
Simply telling this to me doesn't prove anything. Show me the contradiction.
quote:Then why is there an Old Testament?
To guide the Jews, who are a bit muddled on the whole Jesus thing.
quote:You have debased morals.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
quote:Two words: prove it.
Everything in the Universe has a cause. Sex causes babies, hair growth causes a trip to the barber, breathing causes your blood to oxidize. Nothing happens without a cause. The same goes for the universe as a whole. Something had to cause it, whether to make it suddenly poof into existance, or implement the Big Bang. This game can be played back and back for a long time, but since matter cannot be eternal, it has to stop somewhere. At this where, is when God (Note that I'm not saying this proves the Christian God in particular) comes into play. In a nutshell, there needs to be a God in order for anything to exist.
quote:So you believe slavery is right? The Bible was fabricated so hopeless individuals would have something to believe in.
For criminals, it would be fitting today. Hard slave labour in Alaska....that's the ticket. And, you can stop dithering about the Bible being irreverent, or only made so people could feel good, or other Atheist rhetoric. It doesn't go very far.
quote: Indeed so. Why make a point of mentioning it?
To show that the things you may believe to be true are not always fact. That was why I mentioned it.
quote: But they did not.
Okay, before I go any further, I'd like to ask one simple question: have you even read the Bible? The Israelis DID enslave their own people for being in debt, stealing, etc
quote: The first made it clear that it was a slave we are talking about. The second did not, and taking this into comparisan, one can easily judge that the meaning is different.
Re-read the excerpts. There is an obvious contradiction between these excerpts and the rest of the Bible.
quote:That’s strictly your opinion. I’m entitled to my opinion and you’re entitled to yours.
Indeed so. Why make a point of mentioning it?
quote:Again, your bible does not say indicate whether or not this slave was an Israeli. The Israelis did enslave their own people.
But they did not.
quote:Neither did the first excerpt that I provided for you.
The first made it clear that it was a slave we are talking about. The second did not, and taking this into comparisan, one can easily judge that the meaning is different.
quote:dissect them for meanings that blatantly contradicted other passages.
Argh...there IS NO contradiction!
quote:she could have been a common Israeli
See my three words above.
quote:A vague meaning also facilitates the scheme of “non-thinking,” in which people can formulate decisions based upon the bible
It's nice to see that God plans for the future, in any case.
quote:So in whatever case of the slave, whether she is foreign or not, she is punished. You think that’s “pretty good?”
Considering that she is the enemy, and being spared from death, I'd say that it's more than good.
quote:My point, if you would take some time to actually comprehend what I post, would be that they were plain ignorant; but that wasn’t their fault. Of course technology would soon advance, but they just used a god to explain what they did not understand. Is that so incredibly convoluted to recognize?
But what they did not understand is still not know today!
quote:Read your quote, as indicated below. And the sea never parted; the river was never turned into blood, etc. The Bible is NOT history; it’s myth. Try to establish a difference there.
You must have quite the selective memory-I remember listing off several items. Oh, you got them. And no, it's not myth. Thought you might want to know that.
quote:Yes, you did say “if.” So, because you have NOT seen god, why do you believe homosexuality is wrong?
quote:If I was not religious, I wouldn't see a problem with it, no.
I.e., it's in the Bible, I believe it. It's not said in the form of a parable, or otherwise, nor placed under extreme circumstances.
quote:I’m an Atheist, so obviously I believe your bible is unreliable and fundamentally myth.
You've made yourself quite clear on that point, at least.
quote:Naw, they deemed it wrong because God did. I would, if the supreme ruler was telling me...
Not true. The bible says not to have sex with other men, which is a completly different thing. It can be that god doesn't have a problem with homosexuality, but at that point, he didn't want anyone having sex with the same gender because he wantred them to reproduce. These days, there's enough people (more than enough) so that's not really an issue.
That’s strictly your opinion. I’m entitled to my opinion and you’re entitled to yours.
quote: In the instance that she was totally unwilling, I really don't know. Happy?
I was never mad in the first place; though, slightly aggravated.
quote: Your oringinal post had to do with a slave, or an enemy. Someone not from Israel, or of the Jewish religion
Again, your bible does not say indicate whether or not this slave was an Israeli. The Israelis did enslave their own people.
quote: The second quote did NOT specify that the enemy was foreign, Pagan or the suchlike
Neither did the first excerpt that I provided for you.
quote: You, in your attempt to discredit the passages by producing a contradiction, have only looked at a single possible aspect. The method in which these passage are written indicates the meaning, as the first specified that it was a slave, a foreign enemy, and the second did not. The second is about a fellow Israeli.
My only “motive” here was to provide passages from -your- religious text and dissect them for meanings that blatantly contradicted other passages. The method which the passages were recorded does specify that the female was a slave, but not a foreign enemy; thus, she could have been a common Israeli. Maybe her husband sold her into slavery, which was fairly common back then. Like I said before, these are all hypothetical situations. There are no specifications of the female other than she is a slave, yet she is still at fault for her rape.
quote: A vague meaning covers many situations
A vague meaning also facilitates the scheme of “non-thinking,” in which people can formulate decisions based upon the bible, or ANY other religious text for that matter, without thinking for themselves like rational human beings. Yet, religion is the ideal manifesto of non-thinking.
quote: In a rape of an actual Israeli woman, she and her rapist are put to death. Seems like the slave has it pretty good, in fact.
So in whatever case of the slave, whether she is foreign or not, she is punished. You think that’s “pretty good?” I seriously doubt you would have thought this same way if your husband had sold you into slavery, and you happened to be raped.
quote: They knew pleanty, not in the technological sense. There are differences between wisdom and "book smarts". And, I see more of a bludgeon-still waiting for a point.
My point, if you would take some time to actually comprehend what I post, would be that they were plain ignorant; but that wasn’t their fault. Of course technology would soon advance, but they just used a god to explain what they did not understand. Is that so incredibly convoluted to recognize?
quote: I was not talking about earthquakes
You don’t say? Read your quote, as indicated below. And the sea never parted; the river was never turned into blood, etc. The Bible is NOT history; it’s myth. Try to establish a difference there.
quote: You (or maybe it weas Fetch) had said that the people may have seen earthquakes or things of the sort, and with with their limited "knowledge" mistaken them for acts of a god. I was pointing out that these events wouldn't be explainable even in our time, so they would have quite the excuse.
I gave you a link to explain earthquakes, because you said “these events (e.g. earthquakes) wouldn’t be explainable even in our time.”
quote: I'm still waiting to see your "proof" of these occuring naturally.
quote: No, but if God appeared in a big poof and told me that homosexuality was wrong, I'd believe him
What I said:
quote: So god HAS appeared to you in a big “poof” telling you that homosexuality is wrong? Otherwise, you’d accept it as okay, would you not? Then why do you claim it’s wrong now?
What you said:
quote: I actually remember saying "if". Maybe your computer requires a new moniter
Yes, you did say “if.” So, because you have NOT seen god, why do you believe homosexuality is wrong? Don’t dodge the question; answer it directly. And no, my computer is not in need of a new monitor, but I believe yours is in need of an automatic grammar checking device.
quote: But you don't not know that, do you? [referring to knowing that the writers of the Bible had seen god in some sort of “poof”]
Of course I don’t know that because god is not real, and something that’s fictional cannot appear to anyone unless they are intoxicated. I’m an Atheist, so obviously I believe your bible is unreliable and fundamentally myth.
They have no concrete evidence on what causes homosexuality, my guess is that it is a mix between pathology,up-bringing, and other various factors. I dont want to read your book, im afraid that would be a waste of my life, sorry. I know that they have done reports on the "TRUTH" behind the bible, but they have never found concrete proof that god was real either. If god is real, who is to say that Christianity is even correct anyway. I dont know. All I know is that my gay friend is not evil, he is one of the nicest guys I know ( and the most organized, lol,jk)
"Of course not, because god doesn’t exist; this was my original point. " Yes, He does.
"She is intended to be mistreated because she is the enemy, like you mentioned earlier. But I’m not referring to what punishment the rapist would get; I’m referring to –why- the victim would be punished for a palpable crime committed by the assailant. You have yet to answer my question." In the instance that she was totally unwilling, I really don't know. Happy?
"How is this not in reference to an enemy of a difference race and/or religion? Your bible does not specify, and all you can provide for me are hypothetical situations. So yes, it is an apparent contradiction, because there is no specification stating a definite situational cause." Your oringinal post had to do with a slave, or an enemy. Someone not from Israel, or of the Jewish religion. The second quote did NOT specify that the enemy was foreign, Pagan or the suchlike. You, in your attempt to discredit the passages by producing a contradiction, have only looked at a single possible aspect. The method in which these passage are written indicates the meaning, as the first specified that it was a slave, a foreign enemy, and the second did not. The second is about a fellow Israeli.
"Why does God not forgive the slave? I thought he/she/it loved all of his/her/its children" Eternal bliss simply for following some rules seems pretty friendly.
"The Bible does not indicate any hypothetical situations; simply vague ones in which each Christian was/is expected to abide by. " A vague meaning covers many situations.
"yet in Exodus 23:4-5 which I already posted, it contradicts itself saying that slaves should be treated with kindness and equality." In a rape of an actual Israeli woman, she and her rapist are put to death. Seems like the slave has it pretty good, in fact.
"Exactly; they were “processing slowly,” meaning that they did not know much, so they relied on myth to explain things (e.g. religion, your god, etc.). I’m glad that you finally see my point. They knew pleanty, not in the technological sense. There are differences between wisdom and "book smarts". And, I see more of a bludgeon-still waiting for a point.
"Say what now? Earthquakes ARE explainable today because we have technology. Causes of Earthquakes People in biblical times assumed gods, or a god, controlled occurrences such as these. Today, scientists can prove otherwise. They can provide proof, yet you cannot." I was not talking about earthquakes, but of other Biblical events. A quote from me "It would be hard to think of, even today, a scientific reason for a sea parting, river turning to blood, spontanious arrivals of locusts and killah toads, as well as pillars of fire, ect...and that's only in Exodus." I'm still waiting to see your "proof" of these occuring naturally.
" So god HAS appeared to you in a big “poof” telling you that homosexuality is wrong? " I actually remember saying "if". Maybe your computer requires a new moniter...
"Otherwise, you’d accept it as okay, would you not? " If I was not religious, I wouldn't see a problem with it, no. (Boy, somebodys gonna have fun with THAT one).
"But you don’t know that, do you?" But you don't not know that, do you?
quote: Naw. God isn't gonna wind up toasting in a lake of fire.
Of course not, because god doesn’t exist; this was my original point.
quote: Essentially, yes. She is not intended to be mistreated, but being a slave, and, as you said, an enemy, the punishment for her rapist would not recieve as severe a sentence as would come with the rape of different woman.
She is intended to be mistreated because she is the enemy, like you mentioned earlier. But I’m not referring to what punishment the rapist would get; I’m referring to –why- the victim would be punished for a palpable crime committed by the assailant. You have yet to answer my question.
quote: Note that this is not in reference to an enemy from a different race and religion. This would be relative to another Israeli. No contradiction.
How is this not in reference to an enemy of a difference race and/or religion? Your bible does not specify, and all you can provide for me are hypothetical situations. So yes, it is an apparent contradiction, because there is no specification stating a definite situational cause.
quote: 1)She MAY have not beem resisting the "rape". If she had been, in a tight town, people would have heard the commotion (even if she could not shout, things would be banging around, pun intended).
“May have” and “if/had been” insinuate additional theoretical situations. You don’t know the situation in each case, but the Bible clearly states that the victim, although a slave, would be punished while the rapist is forgiven. Why does God not forgive the slave? I thought he/she/it loved all of his/her/its children.
quote: If she did not resist, then it would adultery, something of that sort, but still forcible sex, vague enough to be considered rape. 2)It doesn't say that the woman is attacked inside a house, but it is meant as a guard, in case that sort of thing does occur.
The Bible does not indicate any hypothetical situations; simply vague ones in which each Christian was/is expected to abide by. My basic point is that your Bible justifies a raping because the person was a slave, yet in Exodus 23:4-5 which I already posted, it contradicts itself saying that slaves should be treated with kindness and equality.
quote: That, I never said. You more than likely mistook what I was saying.
Yes, you insinuated it. If I somehow misunderstood, provide clarification.
quote: Yes, they were still developing technology, which they had little of. The more tech a civilization has, the faster they develop more, and these people were still processing slowly.
Exactly; they were “processing slowly,” meaning that they did not know much, so they relied on myth to explain things (e.g. religion, your god, etc.). I’m glad that you finally see my point.
quote: I was pointing out that these events wouldn't be explainable even in our time, so they would have quite the excuse.
Say what now? Earthquakes ARE explainable today because we have technology. Causes of Earthquakes People in biblical times assumed gods, or a god, controlled occurrences such as these. Today, scientists can prove otherwise. They can provide proof, yet you cannot.
quote: No, but if God appeared in a big poof and told me that homosexuality was wrong, I'd believe him
So god HAS appeared to you in a big “poof” telling you that homosexuality is wrong? Otherwise, you’d accept it as okay, would you not? Then why do you claim it’s wrong now?
quote: such was probably the case with the Bibles writers
quote:If your God justifies that, then your god is the same being you call Satan.
Naw. God isn't gonna wind up toasting in a lake of fire.
quote:So you're saying that because this person was an enemy, it's alright to mistreat her. Am I correct?
Essentially, yes. She is not intendedto be mistreated, but being a slave, and, as you said, an enemy, the punishment for her rapist would not recieve as severe a sentence as would come with the rape of different woman.
quote:Well, your valued Bible contradicts itself in Exodus 23:4-5 saying: “If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his [donkey] going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. If thou see the [donkey] of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.”
Note that this is not in reference to an enemy from a different race and religion. This would be relative to another Israeli. No contradiction.
quote:She was willing? Rape is when the rapist does not have consent during sexual intercourse (with the exception of adolescents). Where in that passage does it say that she was attacked inside of a house? It's different in many cases, yet the slave woman is still punished. You’re telling me that because someone isn't in ear's reach of a raping, it's automatically the female's fault, and that makes her "willing?" What kind of credulous BS is that?
1)She MAY have not beem resisting the "rape". If she had been, in a tight town, people would have heard the commotion (even if she could not shout, things would be banging around, pun intended). If she did not resist, then it would adultery, something of that sort, but still forcible sex, vague enough to be considered rape. 2)It doesn't say that the woman is attacked inside a house, but it is meant as a guard, in case that sort of thing does occur. 3)
quote:You’re telling me that because someone isn't in ear's reach of a raping, it's automatically the female's fault, and that makes her "willing?"
That, I never said. You more than likely mistook what I was saying.
quote:Yet without brainpower and intelligence, you cannot have technology
Yes, they were still developing technology, which they had little of. The more tech a civilization has, the faster they develop more, and these people were still processing slowly.
quote:But the Bible is myth, as far as I am concered. You have no scientific proof to solidify your argument that the sea actually parted, or that locusts spontaneously arrived on God's command, etc. Just because it's in the Bible does not mean it happened UNLESS you can provide some type of tangible evidence/recordings.
You (or maybe it weas Fetch) had said that the people may have seen earthquakes or things of the sort, and with with their limited "knowledge" mistaken them for acts of a god. I was pointing out that these events wouldn't be explainable even in our time, so they would have quite the excuse.
quote:I suppose that God personally told you homosexuality was wrong..
No, but if God appeared in a big poof and told me that homosexuality was wrong, I'd believe him. As such was probably the case with the Bibles writers.
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