quote:Are you implying that I believe homosexuals should be rejected their rights? Please clarify this statement.
I don't know. You say it's wrong. So.. they're doing somethign wrong but deserve rights anyway?
quote:What? Please show me the scripture for this. Are you talking about bondservants… because they’re a whole other story.
Yes. If a servant chooses to stay with his "master" his ear is cut off to show humilation and that he belongs to someone.
quote:Would I become a slave, or would I enslave others?
Both, really. Is it a system you think should be applied?
quote:Do they go to hell? Depends on if they are Christian or not.
Yeah, that's my main problem with religon- that everyone's convinced it's only their religon that's right. I'm jewish. I know plenty of religous people who believe in god, the same god you go by, only there are some rules they have you don't and vice versa. They do everything the bible says, like you do- only Christans added the New Testament. They're going to hell and you're not? Just because they don't pray to jesus? And yet a murderer who does prayer to whatever you pray in goes to heaven?
quote:Walk hand in hand? Well who’s gonna stop them?
Oh, there's been plently of couples beaten just because they dared show affection.
quote:I never said I was perfect, or that I never break God’s commands. I do. However, I acknowledge the fact that it is all sin, repent, and try to not do so again. Besides, I am forgiven of my sin.
That's the thing. We all "sin", however you defy it or whatever it is. You can't say your sins are less than someone else's. That's why you can;t judge anyone else or say who they love, or what they think is wrong. If you belive in god, he's the one who's supposed to be in charge of all that.
quote:Your point being…?
Point being, are you saying there's something wrong with that? It's not some horrible thing reserved for gay people, or something. Anything gay people do, straight people do as well.
Homosexuality is the way some choose to live. If you're a heterosexual and dislike homosexuality or are a raging homophobic, stay out out of the homosexuals lives and deal with your own.
quote: Now (most) people believe women and black people have the same rights because of how society evolved. And part of that was also excepting homosexuals.
Are you implying that I believe homosexuals should be rejected their rights? Please clarify this statement.
quote: Cutting off a person's ear in the bible wasn't cruel? It happened, if they didn't want to go back to the streets.
What? Please show me the scripture for this. Are you talking about bondservants… because they’re a whole other story.
quote: So you'd do it today?
Would I become a slave, or would I enslave others?
quote: Sorry. Make it clear for me, please. Since everyone has different opinions on homosexuals. Do they go to hell? Should they be able to adopt? Get married? Walk hand in hand on the streets?
I thought I made it clear in my post of February 26, 2003 10:05 PM .
Do they go to hell? Depends on if they are Christian or not.
Should they be able to adopt? That’s a whole other debate…and I’m not 100% decided on it. I have some definite moral objections to it but I can also see the other side.
Should they be able to get married? By a priest or minister…no. But I have no problem with the government viewing them as married.
Walk hand in hand? Well who’s gonna stop them?
quote: You don't lust? You've never wanted anything you can't have, even a shirt that was too much money? I find that pretty hard to believe. Yet the bible's against it. In fact, it's in one of the 10 commandments.
I never said I was perfect, or that I never break God’s commands. I do. However, I acknowledge the fact that it is all sin, repent, and try to not do so again. Besides, I am forgiven of my sin.
quote: You do realize straight people "backside" each other, too?
quote:So just because society changes their beliefs I should as well? Just because society changes the Bible is automatically invalid? No.
Look, I'm not going to tell you what to believe. But society changed. Now (most) people believe women and black people have the same rights because of how society evolved. And part of that was also excepting homosexuals.
quote:You shouldn’t just apply a blanket term like “slavery is slavery.” The two different time periods were extremely different, and the latter was much more cruel and oppressive. You seem to not want to admit that. The fact remains that if people followed the guidelines for the treatment of slaves, it would not have been cruel. And as far as being treated as “less human”…there will always be social classes in society. Always has, always will.
Obviously there's always "more cruel" and "less cruel". Slavery, though, is making a person work for you without paying them. Cutting off a person's ear in the bible wasn't cruel? It happened, if they didn't want to go back to the streets.
quote:Today, people in poverty and the homeless are treated like they are less human than the well off. (But is their treatment bad enough to be considered “cruel”? nope)
Most people treat poor people as any other, or at least I'd hope so. In fact, there's tons of organzations trying to help them. Mean, huh?
quote:Either way…you’re still ignoring the fact that slavery was an effective way of voluntarily getting out of debt in what was considered a short amount of time.
So you'd do it today?
quote:When did I say homosexuals don’t have worth?!?! Please don’t attempt to put words that I would never say in my mouth.
Sorry. Make it clear for me, please. Since everyone has different opinions on homosexuals. Do they go to hell? Should they be able to adopt? Get married? Walk hand in hand on the streets?
quote:Yeah…and they still are commands. Sure…they’re accepted but they are still wrong. Things may change as far as what society accepts…but they don’t change as far as what the Bible accepts.
You don't lust? You've never wanted anything you can't have, even a shirt that was too much money? I find that pretty hard to believe. Yet the bible's against it. In fact, it's in one of the 10 commandments.
quote:Let me repeat. Homosexual ACTIONS are the same today as they were 2000 years ago. Maybe I wasn’t clear in what I was referring to as “homosexual actions.” There’s really no point in arguing this, fetch…sex is still sex.
But there's no REASON homosexual sex shouldn't be allowed. It wasn't allowed then because they were so worried about contining their generation. Obviously we don't have to worry about that any more.
quote:Sure, maybe some new emotions have been brought into it, maybe it is no longer 100% lust and 0% love…but the actual action of homosexual sex has not. Men backsided each other the same way they did 2000 years ago. (whereas the slavery of the 1800’s was different from the slavery of Biblical times)
You do realize straight people "backside" each other, too?
quote:So just because society changes their beliefs I should as well? Just because society changes the Bible is automatically invalid? No.
Look, I'm not going to tell you what to believe. But society changed. Now (most) people believe women and black people have the same rights because of how society evolved. And part of that was also excepting homosexuals.
quote:You shouldn’t just apply a blanket term like “slavery is slavery.” The two different time periods were extremely different, and the latter was much more cruel and oppressive. You seem to not want to admit that. The fact remains that if people followed the guidelines for the treatment of slaves, it would not have been cruel. And as far as being treated as “less human”…there will always be social classes in society. Always has, always will.
Obviously there's always "more cruel" and "less cruel". Slavery, though, is making a person work for you without paying them. Cutting off a person's ear in the bible wasn't cruel? It happened, if they didn't want to go back to the streets.
quote:Today, people in poverty and the homeless are treated like they are less human than the well off. (But is their treatment bad enough to be considered “cruel”? nope)
Most people treat poor people as any other, or at least I'd hope so. In fact, there's tons of organzations trying to help them. Mean, huh?
quote:Either way…you’re still ignoring the fact that slavery was an effective way of voluntarily getting out of debt in what was considered a short amount of time.
So you'd do it today?
quote:When did I say homosexuals don’t have worth?!?! Please don’t attempt to put words that I would never say in my mouth.
Sorry. Make it clear for me, please. Since everyone has different opinions on homosexuals. Do they go to hell? Should they be able to adopt? Get married? Walk hand in hand on the streets?
quote:Yeah…and they still are commands. Sure…they’re accepted but they are still wrong. Things may change as far as what society accepts…but they don’t change as far as what the Bible accepts.
You don't lust? You've never wanted anything you can't have, even a shirt that was too much money? I find that pretty hard to believe. Yet the bible's against it. In fact, it's in one of the 10 commandments.
quote:Let me repeat. Homosexual ACTIONS are the same today as they were 2000 years ago. Maybe I wasn’t clear in what I was referring to as “homosexual actions.” There’s really no point in arguing this, fetch…sex is still sex.
But there's no REASON homosexual sex shouldn't be allowed. It wasn't allowed then because they were so worried about contining their generation. Obviously we don't have to worry about that any more.
quote:Sure, maybe some new emotions have been brought into it, maybe it is no longer 100% lust and 0% love…but the actual action of homosexual sex has not. Men backsided each other the same way they did 2000 years ago. (whereas the slavery of the 1800’s was different from the slavery of Biblical times)
You do realize straight people "backside" each other, too?
Santa loves everyone, too.. he just doesn't give presents to the naughty boys and girls; he gives them coal. Kind of how god loves everyone, but will still send those naughty boys and girls to hell for being bad. I'm beginning to see more and more similarities in the two fairy tales...
its people like u that stop our world from treating everyone as equals...u need to chill, and mind your own bussiness. if u have a problem with it, thats great. but dont go telling everyone else its wrong, because u have no right to dictate. If u cant deal with it, then we wont deal with you. My best friends sister is by, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Yea ok, its a little weird...but its how they feel, and if its how they want to live there life then let them. Cuz its there own life, and it makes them happy.
quote: Sure, slavery and homosexuality are different things. But society has also decided homosexuality is a normal thing, just like it's decided slavery is inhumane. Why is that different? Society changes.
So just because society changes their beliefs I should as well? Just because society changes the Bible is automatically invalid? No.
quote: Slavery is slavery. There are different ways to repay funds. And besides, even though the bible tried to treat slaves normally, it was still cruel. They still were considered less human than their "masters".
You shouldn’t just apply a blanket term like “slavery is slavery.” The two different time periods were extremely different, and the latter was much more cruel and oppressive. You seem to not want to admit that.
The fact remains that if people followed the guidelines for the treatment of slaves, it would not have been cruel. And as far as being treated as “less human”…there will always be social classes in society. Always has, always will. Today, people in poverty and the homeless are treated like they are less human than the well off. (But is their treatment bad enough to be considered “cruel”? nope) Am I saying I like this? Of course not. Either way…you’re still ignoring the fact that slavery was an effective way of voluntarily getting out of debt in what was considered a short amount of time.
quote: Now women have worth. Just like homosexuals should.
When did I say homosexuals don’t have worth?!?! Please don’t attempt to put words that I would never say in my mouth.
quote: Well, stealing, not masturbating and so on was also a command. Plus divorces and not cheating on spouses, not lusting, and so on. Things change.
Yeah…and they still are commands. Sure…they’re accepted but they are still wrong. Things may change as far as what society accepts…but they don’t change as far as what the Bible accepts.
quote: No, they aren't. Relationships in genral changed. Now there's more courtship, more dating. In those days you'd have been told who to marry and you'd go off and have a dozen children. That changed. Now there's romance to some, meaningless sex to others. In the bible men weren't allowed to have sex with men because they couldn't have babies. These days that's not a problem.
Let me repeat. Homosexual ACTIONS are the same today as they were 2000 years ago. Maybe I wasn’t clear in what I was referring to as “homosexual actions.” There’s really no point in arguing this, fetch…sex is still sex. Sure, maybe some new emotions have been brought into it, maybe it is no longer 100% lust and 0% love…but the actual action of homosexual sex has not. Men backsided each other the same way they did 2000 years ago. (whereas the slavery of the 1800’s was different from the slavery of Biblical times)
quote:Well...you're kinda comparing apples and oranges here. Slavery is not a command in the Bible...there is nothing like "Thou must enslave others." There are guides and limits set. Yes...the Bible still allows slavery. Society, however, has decided that slavery is inhumane.
Sure, slavery and homosexuality are different things. But society has also decided homosexuality is a normal thing, just like it's decided slavery is inhumane. Why is that different? Society changes.
quote:Keep in mind that this was only decided after the extremely inhumane treatment of slaves during colonization and civil war times. I wonder if society would still reject slavery if it was practiced in the way that it occured during Biblical times and under Biblical guidelines. (not based on race...normally voluntary...release after a short period of time...no severity and no abuse...etc.) Either way, I am personally against slavery b/c of what it became, not because of what it originally was.
Slavery is slavery. There are different ways to repay funds. And besides, even though the bible tried to treat slaves normally, it was still cruel. They still were considered less human than their "masters".
And what about the bible and women? Women were forced to leave while they were on their period; they were also considered not worth much (marriege) if they weren't virgins. They'd be solf at age 12 to marriege. Now women have worth. Just like homosexuals should.
quote:I say that comparing the allowance of slavery and the prohibition of homosexuality is like comparing apples and oranges because slavery was not a command...whereas refraining from homosexual actions was.
Well, stealing, not masturbating and so on was also a command. Plus divorces and not cheating on spouses, not lusting, and so on. Things change.
quote:Homosexual actions are the same today as they were 2000 years ago.
No, they aren't. Relationships in genral changed. Now there's more courtship, more dating. In those days you'd have been told who to marry and you'd go off and have a dozen children. That changed. Now there's romance to some, meaningless sex to others. In the bible men weren't allowed to have sex with men because they couldn't have babies. These days that's not a problem.
Okay…I’m a bit stupid so I don’t quite understand your question on whether or not my opposition is abstract…so I’ll pass on that one, but I can answer your other questions.
Do I believe teaching children that homosexuality is wrong? In school, no. In private organizations, such as churches, yes. I don’t mean that it is cause for an entire sermon or that it should be a church all about how homosexuality is wrong…simply that it is acceptable to teach the Bible’s stance on homosexuality if the topic needs to be addressed.
Do I think homosexuals should be excluded from churches, jobs, etc.? From churches and jobs…definitely not. Churches should be open to everybody, just as churches welcome their doors to people involved in other sins (pre-marital sex, lying, adultery, etc.) homosexuals should not be turned away. However, I don’t think it they should expect people in the church to say that their lifestyle is acceptable. About private organizations…I think they have the right to choose who they want. I support the court’s decision to allow the boy scouts to deny a leadership role to a homosexual. Such organizations should be able to choose their members/leaders so that they reflect the values they want to display.
About giving a gay couple a weird look…I’ll be honest, if I saw a gay couple walking down the street holding hands I’d probably show some emotion on my face. This is due to two things. 1) I do not have a poker face. I can’t help it…my feelings go straight to my face and I normally don’t even know it until somebody tells me. 2) My community has very few openly gay couples. I do have gay friends, however I have never seen them with a girl/boyfriend. I think that as time went on and I saw more and more of it I’d get used to it and not have the same reaction. But do I think it is okay to give such a couple a weird look? No.
Why do people feel so strongly about this topic? Well…I am just voicing my opinion, and when people barrage me with accusations of being hateful and deserving death, I feel the need to defend my opinion.
Don’t worry…your post didn’t come off like an interrogation. I actually liked answering questions from somebody that is trying to understand my stance instead of just hurtling accusations at me.
im not against gays at all, as long as i dont turn gay, i eint bothered! at the end of the day, people find love and those particular people have just found it in a different way. cut them sum slack, they dont rub it in our faces, they get on with their lives and live it normally, why put them down? they eint dun nothing 2 u. all
[This message was edited by YNLissa on February 27, 2003 at 09:20 AM.]
I thank you for your clarification. I do have a couple questions though.
Do you mean to say that your opposition to homosexuality is entirely abstract? You said that you don't support extremist actions such as incarceration, but what about more subtle things? Do you support teaching children that homosexuality is wrong? What about churches, employers, or other private institutions not allowing ***** members? (Dangit, q.ueer is not a curse word. I'm sick of it.) What about giving a gay couple a weird look when they hold hands in public?
I really am just wondering, though I may come across as interrogating...after all, if this is an entirely abstract discussion, why are we even having it at all? And why do people feel so dang strongly about it?
quote: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV): Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Topics 
