If you honestly look at the beginning of homosexuality, you will realize that it is something you are born with. I have a homosexual friend and he told me once that he would do anything to be straight because he doesn't want to have to feel like a girl in a guy's body all the time. There is nothing wrong with being gay. They have feelings too. Discriminating for somebody's sexuality is a lot like discriminating by somebody's race. And neither of those things are good reasons to hate on somebody else. I don't see anything wrong with homosexuality. They are people too or do some people look over that fact? We should stop being so narrow minded.

dude,
U people all need 2 kinda step back and take chill pill! This is crazy. U know what, we are all people. As long as you are you and happy with yourself and know who you are, that's all that matters. It doesn't matter who thinks what is right, we are all the same, we are all unstoppable. We are all , well lets go with Xtina, "Beautiful". This war will never be won but we should just remember, we are just basically all the same some people are just different in their personal lives. C'mon... where is there personal life our business anyway? If they want us to know who they R, then they are happy with themselves so just breathe!

In My Not So Humble Opinion,
ASHTON ARRECHEDERRA

Hmmm. Homosexuality is sort of a quality in the human mindset, like liking apples instead of bananas. Now, I would disagree with any attempts to force homosexuality on another person. That would be a rape of the mind. However, there is nothing wrong with liking someone of your own sex if they like you in the same way. Still, it is important to take note that just like not all people like bananas, not all people are homosexual. This kind of persecution is like persecution for personal preference. It could also be seen as a sort of racism. I.e., blacks were persecuted for color and it was justified in the bible. Now are we going to say that being gay is wrong and it is also justified to persecute them in the bible. You see the problem? There is always some question as to the actual need for such things. Anyway, I've said my piece. Everybody have a nice day and play nice, ok?
Mark

Easy there bad boy.

Listen all u Loser that think homosexuality is rong especially u princessmonica12 they'r ppl just like u & I. U c theres more 2 it then just what u c n Christianity. Alot uv ppl miss the meaning bhind the msg but u r cumpletely missing the meaning. Adam & Eve I dont no who Brainwashed u butt u certainly got yur facts rong. O my bad yur still young u still got time 2 "Grow Up". U no its bad enuff that theres "Judgemental Punishment" n the world. U want 2 talk bout putting homosexuality n prison well how bout this y not put u there 4 judging another person by h/her sexuality. Homosexuality Is Not Rong yur Rong. Xcuse me butt i no wen i c munipulation &/or Brainwash wen i c it. I got no prob. arguing over this matter @ all Iv got more facts then where this 411 came frum. U 1der y theres so much H8 so much isms n the world so much Discrimination 2words n-ething-well its bcuz ppl like u miss whats mportant & u dont get all the facts rite & go w/what u c. Sorry honey butt it doesnt work that way. Let me short'n it down 4 u a bit learn the meaning 1st. b4 u get 2 the msg then u can cunsider the art uv judging. Yur Rong period! I was a christian frum b4 & i thought that myself butt i came 2 my senses bcuz "I thought bout it 1st." then admitting what happen i learn'd more then i thought i did & it felt good not 2 pass judgement. N fact i no/understand more bout Discrimination/Judgemental Punishment & Pride then u do. U have no Pride @ all. God is almity powerful-there4 i understand/no how he works. If God permits u 2 Judge like that then u have just ben deceived & the devil has done his job & it is u that has ben Damned 4 a judgemental call. If pple had more Pride, Discrimination/H8 whatever u want 2 call it woodnt b a prob. If u pay close attention 2 1 part uv the Adam & Eve story u'd understand/no that most uv life is based on that story alone. 4 those that pass Judgement w/no reasonable cause u need 2 do more uv yur homework. HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT RONG N N-E WAY SHAPE OR FORM. Iv got more answer then u can preech bout religion or whatever. On a l8r note this meaningful msg is NOT AN OPINION.
Bad Boy,
BIGG D.
p.s. If n-ebody wants 2 argue some more bout issues it dosnt matter what im game bring it on, iv got truth that'll tear most u ppl up!

I missed one lousy bracket...
Anyway, here is the middle section of my last long post that got a little flubbed up originally:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

---

Umm…I do not understand the relevance of this. I said that Malakoi should not be translated as “malleable, coward, sickly, lacking self-control or morally weak” because this translation has nothing to do with sexual issues,

---

Without knowing the author's intent we could very well assume he was meaning sexually soft, or weak on sexual morals. The point is context gives us a muted veiw when looking at a list like this is.

Paul probably thought his intent was crystal clear and the people we was writing to probably understood him. But without knowing specifically what it was in refrence to it's like hearing one side of a phone conversation or answers without hearing the questions (Think 'Jeopardy!'). The point is we don't know what he was talking about beyond his exact words, none of which condemn homsexuality outright.

quote:

---

whereas the other things that “malakoi” is listed with (sexually immoral, adulterers and male prostitutes) all have to do with sexual immorality. Therefore, the translation of “malakoi” should logically involve a sexual aspect.

---

Okay, sexually soft, malleable, or sexually effeminate. But, the link is not there to homosexuality.

well that was convincing...

i think it's wrong too.

What exactley is wrong wiht. You don't seem to have a rational argument opposing it, so why not? Just because you FEEL it's wrong, doesn't mean it IS. Think it through a bit, you might change your mind, or atleast be a tad bit more accepting.

Homosexuality may seem awkward and it was not intended to turn out that way, but people who are gay cannot help it. They can't control how they feels towards the person of the same sex. It's their nature. They don't exactly choose to become gay(well some may), but still the point is they shouldn't be shunned just because they have interest in their own sex. One has to respect that. You may not understand how they feel because you are not a homosexual, but still you should at least give slack. I mean people out there are already making fun of them. What? You want to shun them from life forever? If homosexuality is so horrible, why not shun those that have diseases or something? Ask your self that. If we are to shun those that we think make our society look horrible, then pretty much everyone whould be shunned including you and me.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV): Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This is what I'm working from. Just so we have refrence points.

Something of note: the KJV doesn't translate either word as homosexual, and malakoi specifically, is simply "effeminate".

quote:

---

The reason why homosexuality is such a hotly debated subject right now, and things like lying are not, is simply that lying is not considered a “lifestyle.” ... The bottom line is that vices like lying are viewed as more of a “one time” thing (regardless of whether or not they really are)

---

As I stated before. I believe dishonesty to be a lifelong affliction, especially with the common acceptance of mionr lies as "not so bad". A lifetime of normal dishonesty is no worse than a lifetime of normal homosexuality.

quote:

---

Also, there are no Christian churches out there saying that God has no problem with lying.

---

That is becasue we can clearly see that numerous times, in no uncertain language, bearing flase witness and telling lies is condemned. This is not true of homosexuality. Indeed, the origin of our latest discussion on this is wether or not the Bible even condemns homosexuality in the first place!

quote:

---

Another reason why homosexuality is such a “hot topic” right now is that there has been such an increase in those admitting homosexuality in the last 30 or so years. Lying has been mildly tolerated (though not accepted) for many many years and so is not as controversial an issue, but now that homosexuals are suddenly more prevalent and open in society than just 30 years ago (and are demanding acceptance), the issue is much more controversial.

---

This is one of the more pertinant points. I would say there is no evidence that homosexuality is any more common today than a thousand years ago, or more. The difference comes from the publicity it receives in certain venues (in no small part from those who condemn it, strangely enough), the new ability for people to publicly express or be truthful about their sexuality, the greater acceptance of these and other "alternative" values and lifestyles, the wealth of information we are exposed to about all sorts of things, and the "empowerment" movents that have gained momentum - for instance women are no more common than they were a hundred or a thousand years ago but they are more visible, empowered, and less discriminated against.
I believe it would be a mistake to confuse the "gay pride" or acceptance movements with more actual homosexuals. More people may be more fully aware of their own sexuality and be more comfortable expressing that prefrence, but there's no telling that that prefrence wouldn't have still existed had they lived oh so many years ago.

quote:

---

The bottom line is that vices like lying are viewed as more of a “one time” thing (regardless of whether or not they really are) whereas homosexuality is viewed as a permanent sin. I’m not saying that it’s good that so much focus is placed on homosexuality right now, I’m just explaining why it is.

---

To clarify: you don't necessarily agree that homosexuality is a permanent sin, or that there is so much focus and controversy surounding it?

One I can agre with, while teh otehr not so much. Obviosuly I don't agree it is a sin, let alone a permanent or serious one. Where I disagree on the "focus" issue is that focus is rather irrelevant (see above discussion). What matters most are the core issues of wrongness and reasoning. While I am gladd (pun) there is more awareness of homosexuality today, it's neither here nor there in relation to whetehr that means we should talk about it or how moral it may or may not be.

quote:

---

Umm…I do not understand the relevance of this. I said that Malakoi should not be translated as “malleable, coward, sickly, lacking self-control or morally weak” because this translation has nothing to do with sexual issues, /QUOTE]
Without knowing the author's intent we could very well assume he was meaning sexually soft, or weak on sexual morals. The point is context gives us a muted veiw when looking at a list like this is.
Paul probably thought his intent was crystal clear and the people we was writing to probably understood him. But without knowing specifically what it was in refrence to it's like hearing one side of a phone conversation or answers without hearing the questions (Think 'Jeopardy!'). The point is we don't know what he was talking about beyond his exact words, none of which condemn homsexuality outright.

[QUOTE] whereas the other things that “malakoi” is listed with (sexually immoral, adulterers and male prostitutes) all have to do with sexual immorality. Therefore, the translation of “malakoi” should logically involve a sexual aspect.

---

Okay, sexually soft, malleable, or sexually effeminate. The link is not there to homosexuality.

quote:

---

But I guess that if the theme song went "We'll have a gay, sexually immoral, adulterating, prostituting time" then, yeah, the song would be interperted as involving homosexuality instead of happiness.

---

It very possibly could still mean happy. It would be expressing their attitude while engaging in whatever "time" they were engaging in.

quote:

---

The things it is listed about are moral wrongs, but more specifically, are sexual moral wrongs. It is far-fetched to think that Paul would list a coward as not inheriting the kingdom of God in a list with sexually immoral, adulterers, and male prostitutes.

---

Again, a distinct possibility. This is the *definitive* list of sinners, so it would seem logical to throw the weak-minded and spiritually bereft in there as well as....

quote:

---

Maybe if he had listed other non-sexual vices, but he did not.

---

And here is the crx of the argument: He does include other types of sins. The full list also includes "thieves ... the covetous ... drunkards... revilers [and] extortioners". And unless you want to pass that off as "sexually drunken" we're covering a whole slew of sins, not just sexual ones.

The saga continues...

The reason why homosexuality is such a hotly debated subject right now, and things like lying are not, is simply that lying is not considered a “lifestyle.” Nobody announces that they’ve decided to lie for the rest of their life at Thanksgiving dinner. (Stereotypical “coming out” scene—I know.) Homosexuality is seen as a much more permanent thing than is lying. Also, there are no Christian churches out there saying that God has no problem with lying. Another reason why homosexuality is such a “hot topic” right now is that there has been such an increase in those admitting homosexuality in the last 30 or so years. Lying has been mildly tolerated (though not accepted) for many many years and so is not as controversial an issue, but now that homosexuals are suddenly more prevalent and open in society than just 30 years ago (and are demanding acceptance), the issue is much more controversial. The bottom line is that vices like lying are viewed as more of a “one time” thing (regardless of whether or not they really are) whereas homosexuality is viewed as a permanent sin. I’m not saying that it’s good that so much focus is placed on homosexuality right now, I’m just explaining why it is.

quote:

---

So te Flinstones should be considered homosexual ("We'll have a gay old time") just because gay has a meaning that also means something sexual?

---

Umm…I do not understand the relevance of this. I said that Malakoi should not be translated as “malleable, coward, sickly, lacking self-control or morally weak” because this translation has nothing to do with sexual issues, whereas the other things that “malakoi” is listed with (sexually immoral, adulterers and male prostitutes) all have to do with sexual immorality. Therefore, the translation of “malakoi” should logically involve a sexual aspect. But I guess that if the theme song went "We'll have a gay, sexually immoral, adulterating, prostituting time" then, yeah, the song would be interperted as involving homosexuality instead of happiness.

quote:

---

If we're talking about moral wrongs I don't see why it would be far fetched to think we're talking about a weak-minded person unconvinced in their belief, or a person who is morally weak.

---

The things it is listed about are moral wrongs, but more specifically, are sexual moral wrongs. It is far-fetched to think that Paul would list a coward as not inheriting the kingdom of God in a list with sexually immoral, adulterers, and male prostitutes. Maybe if he had listed other non-sexual vices, but he did not.

you're not afending anyone...you're "offending" me...but I've never heard of any afending...Read a book and learn to spell. And stop being ignorant! I'm *ahem* bisexual...I love God...God loves me! Just because my sexual orentation is a little different doesn't mean my morals are chucked out the window. I'm quite happy to say I'm Christian and that anyone who knows me knows I'm an avid church goer BUT they also know I'm bisexual...maybe I'm an oxymoron but thats just me. Please stop being so close minded.

Much love and all that schitck...
Rachel

quote:

---

In reference to your #2 paragraph of Jan. 24 : I believe homosexuals can go to heaven. Just like liars, adulterers, gossipers, murderers, etc. can go to heaven, as long as they have accepted Jesus as their personal savior! Here’s the key, though… repentance (turning from sin) is a sign of a true conversion, and while I would never know for sure if somebody who never repented was going to heaven or not, I would doubt it. The reason why this topic is still relevant is because lying and gossiping and all is not ordinarily considered a lifestyle, and is much easier to abandon then is homosexuality.

---

While I would contend that for most liars and cheats it represents a pattern of "corrupt" behovior. Such as the concept of a "white lie", something that supposedly does no harm, but is still less than truthful. Lying is so common and innate in most people, as a defense against percieved harm (lying to parents, Iraq lying about it's weapons) or combined with some other justification that allows outwardly moral people to live rather immoral lives. This is a habit hard to break. Likewise infidelity or lust.

If we reacted to lies like we reacted to homosexuality people would quickly lose tolerance for the strictness of the church.

The point is if homosexuality is on par with lying then it shoudl be such an uncontroversial topic in refrence to religion as to not even merit intense discussion like it has. No, in the eyes of religion you shouldn't lie, but we're not going to make a big deal about it either. You make your choice, be saved or not, but we're talking minor trangressions easily forgiven.

Of course, this all assumes it is even biblically condemned, which we now turn to:

quote:

---

The Corinthians verses: (sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you!)

---

Not a problem

quote:

---

Malakoi should not be translated as “malleable, coward, sickly, lacking self-control or morally weak” because the other traits in the list concern sexual issues.

---

So te Flinstones should be considered homosexual ("We'll have a gay old time") just because gay has a meaning that also means something sexual?

If we're talking about moral wrongs I don't see why it would be far fetched to think we're talking about a weak-minded person unconvinced in their belief, or a person who is morally weak.

quote:

---

A translation of effeminate, male prostitute, and catamite still has homosexual overtones. (To my understanding, a catamite is not necessarily the victim of rape, but can be willing.)

---

But it never says homosexuality. As long as you're not a prostitute or rapist or child molester you're fine.

Just like lust for a female, adultery, prostitution, and coveting someone else's wife are sins representing negative aspects of a heterosexual lifestyle, male prostitution and corruption of a minor are considered wrong rather than a general condemnation of an otehrwise accepted lifestyle.

quote:

---

As for the question of why Paul did not address lesbianism… the vagueness of the work “arsenokoitai” means that it could be applying to both men and women. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but a homosexual can be both male and female, right?)

---

You're wrong and right, in that order. Yes, homosexual, in English refers to both male/male and female/female relationships. However, arsenokoitai neither means "homosexual" nor does it include women, the literal translation of arsenos being "man". I'm sorry for not including that in my original comments I don't know why it got left out. The word might have come from Leviticus 20:13 (kai hos an koime:the: meta arsenos koite:n gunaikos...) which speaks specifically about men.

In response to your #1 paragraph of Jan. 24: The verses I was referring to are right after the Romans verses in question, specifically Romans 1:29-32.

In reference to your #2 paragraph of Jan. 24 : I believe homosexuals can go to heaven. Just like liars, adulterers, gossipers, murderers, etc. can go to heaven, as long as they have accepted Jesus as their personal savior! Here’s the key, though… repentance (turning from sin) is a sign of a true conversion, and while I would never know for sure if somebody who never repented was going to heaven or not, I would doubt it. The reason why this topic is still relevant is because lying and gossiping and all is not ordinarily considered a lifestyle, and is much easier to abandon then is homosexuality.

The Corinthians verses: (sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you!)
Malakoi should not be translated as “malleable, coward, sickly, lacking self-control or morally weak” because the other traits in the list concern sexual issues. A translation of effeminate, male prostitute, and catamite still has homosexual overtones. (To my understanding, a catamite is not necessarily the victim of rape, but can be willing.) As for the question of why Paul did not address lesbianism… the vagueness of the work “arsenokoitai” means that it could be applying to both men and women. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but a homosexual can be both male and female, right?)

Nothing much? What do you mean by that Dante? I don't think I could get any more confused about this subject than I am right now............ . I'm just slow in understnading things so just don't mind my really stuipd questions that I ask.............
Bye N have a nice day
NoOne Important

nada mucho?

PrincessMonica12,but why do you think homosexuality is wrong? That's where I can't see where your coming from, Sorry. but I do want to know so if you could help me to understand, that would be really great, please
Well that's about it
Have a nice day

ok i will say this i am soory if i did offend any1 and i admit that me saying that they should be put in jail is dumb BUT I still think that homosexuality is wrong.