that is true...

good point

Some extra references to back that post up:

Wikipedia Article on Kin Selection

A Stanford Article

quote:

but they won't necessarily be your genes, because each person's genes are a different cocktail than those of, say, your sister. the only way to ensure that YOUR genes are carried on is to reproduce

Not entirely. You share half of your genes with a sibling or parent and one eighth with a first cousin. Yes, everyone (with the exception of identital twins of course) has different genes, but we still share some genes. Thus, biological altruism or kin selection can work.

Oh, and the article I mentioned is from a book by Daniel Wegner called "The Illusion of Conscious Will". If I can find an excerpt online, I will hook you up.

but they won't necessarily be your genes, because each person's genes are a different cocktail than those of, say, your sister. the only way to ensure that YOUR genes are carried on is to reproduce

quote:

one can believe in something without logic, that is, sometimes people need to have a part of thier minds and beliefs seperate from their sense of logic...

Right. I am one of those people who finds it very, very hard to believe in something I find illogical, no matter how appealing it sounds. However, everyone is different in their predisposition and some can be persuaded to believe things.

Most people who hold strong beliefs got those beliefs from somewhere, such as parental influences. There is still a lack of choice in personal belief, be it nature or nurture.

But can we really choose? Are we not compelled by our instincts to do what we think of as "right"?

Boil right and wrong down to biological altruism. If members of your family, who share the same genes as you, are in danger, it is to the advantage of your own genes to help them. Even if you die, the family members you save will carry on your genes, which include the tendency to sacrifice for others. It is more or less agreed on that what we call altruism is really just another example of trying to get our genes passed down. Now, the response itself is pretty simple - help those around you. When this stuff really mattered, the people around you were most likely your family group, so the response evolved as "help people in the surrounding area". Thus, a person jumping into a river to save a total stranger can be explained by this.

quote:

I sometimes want to believe in the Norse or Greek gods, for example, but my sense of logic will not allow me to.

one can believe in something without logic, that is, sometimes people need to have a part of thier minds and beliefs seperate from their sense of logic...

wow. i just think of free will as the ability to choose between right and wrong...

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tying free will into religion, everyone has the free will to believe what they want, without others shoving their own religion down their throats

Don't confuse free will with freedom. People may believe what they believe, but belief itself is probably not a choice. I sometimes want to believe in the Norse or Greek gods, for example, but my sense of logic will not allow me to.

Alright.
According to a recent study (I'd post the link but the article is from a course packet for my biology class. I'll try to find it online somewhere later for anyone who wants it), the nerve impulses that tell your body to do something (such as move your arm) are sent out before you think, "hmm, I'd like to do this now". In other words, by the time you decide that you are going to do something, you are already about to do so. The only choice that the individual seems to have in controlling these impulses is in "overriding them". In other words, you can decide not to do something, but not what to do. This has been cited as evidence that free will does not exist.

Sorry if I didn't word that too well. I'll try to get the article, and it's an excellent read.

Now, if we want to discuss free will, we need to first define it. Voltaire put it the best. Will itself is a compulsion to do something, and by definition, compulsion is not free. So basically, free will by definition is oxymoronic.

What exactly is free will, as most people think of it? The ability to decide what we want to do and when to do it? Does this ability really exist?

tying free will into religion, everyone has the free will to believe what they want, without others shoving their own religion down their throats

sure, why not
btw, thanx

Anyone want to discuss free will, while we're at it?

By the way, nice sig.

exactly

Religion is an easy answer to all of the problems and doubts that plague us. You can easily get through life without it, but many people aren't willing to shoulder doubt for the sake of reason.

religion is a basic human need to have something stronger than oneself governing life and death...

Because it's relevant, perhaps? Did I forget to edit out the bit about peanuts or something?

The topic of this thread is, to paraphrase, what religion is. What I posted could probably be taken as an attempt to disprove God, but I found it more like a statement as to why religion exists. I could have taken out the first half or so, I suppose, since that really has nothing to do with religion itself and more to do with God or the lack of God, but it's too late now, isn't it? What's done is done. I, unfortunately, can't go back and edit my post regardless of who wants me to.

Besides, it's a good read. It may not be completely in sync with the topic of this thread, but it's still got some good points.

Oh, and to clarify: I meant that I didn't get it from any website that I could have linked to. I got it in an email, read the whole thing, and copy-and-pasted it. I didn't type out the whole thing, if that's what you thought. Someone else did, and I just recopied it.

quote:

I didn't have a link, oh high and mighty one. Not everything comes from the Internet, you know.

Then why bother writing the whole thing? And I wasn't ordering you around, I was asking, thus the manners.