Some of the highschool guys in my youth group at church (yea a Christian church), have been wearing really tight girls pants and shirts, nail polish, and make up TO CHURCH! After praying about it and digging into Gods word, I really, strongly believe that this is totally opposing Gods will for Christian guys. I know my convictions, but what do you think about it?

For anyone interested in the possible motivations behind cross-dressing I would suggest watching the movie 'Velvet Goldmine' and doing some research into the glam-rock movement and the idea's behind it.

What about autism? OCD? You're assuming that something can be "fixed" with a disorder like this.

I have stated below that I don't care what adults do. That doesn't mean I have to buy it or accept their explaination. But if they want to do it, fine I guess.

My original argument was about kids/teens who do this stuff for many times silly reasons. My statement was that we should not allow kids with mental problems to be self-destructive. If adults with mental problems do it fine. But kids have no right to be left alone with mental issues.

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But I will not buy into the "I am a woman trapped in a man's body" routine. There is someting else going on.

Why does it matter. They do what they want to achieve their conception of happiness. Why do you care?

What is an individualist like you doing in this argument BSP?

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You asked for evidence that environmental factors are a part of gender issues. I gave it to you.

Alright, then do it for cross dressing. I seriously hope you're not still standing behind the last source. I've stated twice why it doesn't work.
EDIT: I asked for "environmental factors"? I think, it was more along the lins of proof that most to all come from broken/abusive homes. I do not deny the presence of environment and upbringing in any disorder. I believe, in a general sense, that some disorders can be self induced, leaving the person believing they have the disorder when it really was them creating it.

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But I will not buy into the "I am a woman trapped in a man's body" routine. There is someting else going on. A need for attention, sexual abuse, feeling unwanted by the opposite sex, and many other things. These should be worked out by a psycho-therapist not by the broken-moral-compass types.

That's actually a very simple and insulting way to view the disorder. Some transsexuals may claim that as an explanation, but the reality is far too complex and painful to even put into words.
-And friend, they are worked out by a psychotherapist. These are not just any therapists who can give out letters of referral for surgery. They are not simple people who have walked into being a therapist, and know nothing about the disorder. They are trained and they are informed, and they know the disorder, as they know the concerns you've made.
-Surely, in many cases your concerns are warranted. Feeling unwanted by the opposite sex is a large one. In one's teen years, you feel unwanted by almost everyone, at one point or antother, and in this day and age, where information is so readily avaliable on gender dysphoria and other issues, it's a small wonder how many teenagers are saying they are transgender. A need for attention is another good example. I haven't seen this one, but I am positive it happens. Sexual abuse, or even one you haven't mentioned: a want for a new sexual experience. These, too, are common reasons that many people attempt to go through HRT (hormone replacement therapy), or even SRS (sexual reassignment surgery). In my cynical nature, I attribute midlife crisis to those thirty and fourty year old men who transition into women. But the trained therapist's job is to filter through these people, to make sure they aren't pursuing this because of any of these reasons.
-If you are unconvinced, these are the requirements that therapists must follow by law in order to give a referral for HRT or SRS (they cannot prescribe the hormones, or the surgery; they can only give a legal referral).

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Eligibility Criteria. The administration of hormones is not to be lightly undertaken because of their medical and social risks. Three criteria exist.
1. Age 18 years;
2. Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social benefits and risks;
3. Either: a. A documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration of hormones; or b. A period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).

In addition, there are more requirements than initially meet the eye.

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Readiness Criteria. Three criteria exist:
1. The patient has had further consolidation of gender identity during the real-life experience or psychotherapy;
2. The patient has made some progress in mastering other identified problems leading to improving or continuing stable mental health (this implies satisfactory control of problems such as sociopathy, substance abuse, psychosis and suicidality;
3. The patient is likely to take hormones in a responsible manner.

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Hormones are to be prescribed by a physician, and should not be administered without adequate psychological and medical assessment before and during treatment.

All of these quotes are me assuring you, that this issue, is no light matter, and no one takes it that way. I reiterate, the therapists involved in this are trained professionals. They come from many different backgrounds; my personal one is over fifty years old and he comes from a Christian home.

I've been reading this source (which I will provide for you at the end of my post) for a bit now. I skimmed it in my therapist's office, but I never saw this. It seems I was wrong? Transvestism is a mental disorder as defined by the DSM IV. Let me quote it for you. It's not quoted from the DSM but from the source that references it.

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Dual-role Transvestism has three criteria:
1. The individual wears clothes of the opposite sex in order to experience temporary membership in the opposite sex;
2. There is no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing;
3. The individual has no desire for a permanent change to the opposite sex.

I find that slightly interesting. Thought it would be fair for you to see it?

There is also one for GID (gender dysphoria) in childhood, but that one is rather long. When you open the pdf, search "Gender Identity Disorder of Childhood" and it will take you right to it.

On the pdf, if you are interested in the requirements for the therapist, search "The Adult-Specialist," as I believe you have stated concern for their moral well-being and training?

Standards of Care for GID

And this is where I found it: World Professional Association for Transgender Health

The last source isn't completely unbiased, but I assure you, the standards of care are. It's gone through six editions. It's not biased.

So, you have looked at my sources and discouted them with one sentence a piece. Well done. Although, just because you disagree doesn't make it factually untrue. You asked for evidence that environmental factors are a part of gender issues. I gave it to you.

I have stated that cross dressing may or may not be a mental disorder. If it is, it should be treated as such. If it isn't, then I find it ridiculous and will not support men in bras. I suppose that this needs to be taken on a case by case basis. But I will not buy into the "I am a woman trapped in a man's body" routine. There is someting else going on. A need for attention, sexual abuse, feeling unwanted by the opposite sex, and many other things. These should be worked out by a psycho-therapist not by the broken-moral-compass types.

For the NARTH reference, I'm just not going to touch that. Rant and rave all you want, but I simply don't take biased sources into consideration. I'm sorry, but anyone who still believes homosexuality is a disorder, shouldn't be giving their opinion out. It's been taken out of the list of mental disorders. People should get over it.

The second source had nothing real to do with transvestites. Tell me what gender dysphoria has to do with cross dressing in this reference?

The third one, I have given my opinion on. An identity disorder is not the same as a psychotic disorder. They are vastly different. Find another source.

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This is America, they can do what they want. I just don't want guys who dress like girls going into the womens bathroom. If they want to be women then do it. But you can't just act like a woman and expect to be treated that way. They have a choice to make.

If I understood you correctly, your opinion is that cross-dressers should not use the bathroom of the opposite sex, but transsexuals can? If that's the case, I can agree with that. Transvestites should not be using bathrooms of the opposite sex. But with someone's face, or body, where do we draw the line? Transsexuals may not always look like their gender, and may get confused for their sex, and there are many people who are gender-sex aligned, and still appear androgynous.

I simply want you to respond the the numerous pieces of evidence I provided you. I am sort of finished with this topic. I contend that Gender issure are mental disorder and that environmental effects have a lot to do with that, thus making it a choice, not a way of living. My proof backs me up and proves you wrong. I am satisfied with that.

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people who have crossed gender boundaries have been honored and respected in many different cultures. I'm unsure why America is so opposed to it.

This is America, they can do what they want. I just don't want guys who dress like girls going into the womens bathroom. If they want to be women then do it. But you can't just act like a woman and expect to be treated that way. They have a choice to make.

Okay, would you like a source cited on cross-dressers or transsexuals? I have a few my therapist gave me, one of which is the Harry Benjamin guide for diagnosing and care for gender-dysphoria. This includes the actual description of gender dysphoria as defined in the DSM IV. I admit that I wouldn't have much for cross-dressing. That issue is mainly a matter of opinion, as it's not a defined disorder. However people who have crossed gender boundaries have been honored and respected in many different cultures. I'm unsure why America is so opposed to it. (I could cite that, too, if you so insisted)

Also, I wasn't insulting you or anything. I abbreviate names when I don't want to write them out. It's not my fault yours has produced a poor abbreviation.

Most male transvestites I've met don't look like men in dresses. They look very much like women, which can be unnerving when you discover that they aren't actually female.

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A disorder is simply something that is not "normal". It isn't necessarily a bad thing and thus doesn't necessarily need to be fixed. Plenty of people live with so-called disorders that don't interfere with their day-to-day lives.

I'd say a 6'6" male with a 5:00 shaddow, lipstick, eyeliner, a bra (who straps show out of the dress because he wants everyone to know he also has a bra on), and a big flowerey dress, has his day-to-day life affected by his disorder. Give me a break.

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Originally posted by Bushsupporter:
I don't get why guys want to wear bras either.

I don't either, but as it's not really my problem, I don't lose any sleep over it. Might as well wonder why some people wear socks with sandals.

Also, a couple things to note:

*A disorder is simply something that is not "normal". It isn't necessarily a bad thing and thus doesn't necessarily need to be fixed. Plenty of people live with so-called disorders that don't interfere with their day-to-day lives.
*During the 1800s, boys were commonly put in dresses up until they were out of their toddler years.

Finally, societal norms will always change over time. It's certainly more acceptable today for a man to dress as a woman than it was 50 years ago. But how is that a bad thing?

I doubt any of us here would complain that women frequently wear pants. It's socially acceptable these days. A few generations ago, however, it was bordering on sinful. How is cross-dressing any different? (This is an especially important question when you consider that pants were originally considered men's clothing.)

I don't get why guys want to wear bras either.

Oh, I agree with you. I'm sure he will bring his full attention to it when he gets off of work. As far as my opinion goes, I don't know where I stand. I am for transsexuals, but I never understood cross-dressing.

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Now, be fair gentlemen. Shade does work third shift and does need some sleep.

That's fine with me. I am not satisfied with being asked for proof and then not addressed on that proof. I understand people have to leave, but don't discount my hard work and research which went unanswered.

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I'm going to sleep.

I'm taking this to mean that you admit you were wrong and that you now agree with Bushsupporter and myself.

Now, be fair gentlemen. Shade does work third shift and does need some sleep.

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BS: I have given personal testimony. That is enough for me, and should be enough for you. I'll get around to it when I have more time.

As with Bushsupporter, I know guy that dresses like a woman. I just called him and he said he had a gender-disorder.

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I'm going to sleep.

I'm taking this to mean that you admit you were wrong and that you now agree with Bushsupporter and myself.

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BS: I have given personal testimony. That is enough for me, and should be enough for you. I'll get around to it when I have more time.

OK, Let's see here. I know this guy who has mental problems because his father was not around and thinks he is a girl. There. Tit-for-tit on personal testimony.

And the name calling is a very effective way to argue.

Dear me, good grammar and proper addressing skills.

You are obviously taking things out of context, and I will not be flanked. I'm going to sleep. I'm not going to lose my job over two trolls. Good day.

BS: I have given personal testimony. That is enough for me, and should be enough for you. I'll get around to it when I have more time.