quote:

And simply, gender-identity develops. Your environment has little to nothing to do with how it comes about.

This is not true and I have proven it. Your claim is false.

I would also like to note that you have given no proof of your claims even though I have provided it exstensively

quote:

Cross dressing isn't a gender-identity crisis, or issue. Many of these people are very comfortable in their given sex.

I agree with Bushsupporter, is there was no gender-identity issue why would a person dress outside of their gender?

Shade seems anxious to kill the messenger for providing proof leading me to believe that even Shade sees the holes in his own argument. Shade has been quick to call for proof for those that disagree with him but is not so quick to provide proof to back up his own argument other than personal stories.

quote:

Have you ever thought to ask, then?

OK. For all you men out there that wear dresses and bras and makeup, why do you want to look like a girl?

quote:

I am just giving you the proof you requested. Don't kill the messenger. These articles are from credible people not hate-mongers. Maybe you should take the time to read them.

Don't ignore the rest of the post, sir.

quote:

I don't see how a guy would want to dress like a girl, unless there is something wrong with his brain.

Have you ever thought to ask, then?

quote:

Cross dressing isn't a gender-identity crisis, or issue. Many of these people are very comfortable in their given sex.

I don't see how a guy would want to dress like a girl, unless there is something wrong with his brain.

quote:

But I find it slightly offensive that you've aligned disorders such as gender-dysphoria with psychotic disorders. If that is what you have aimed for, well played.

I am just giving you the proof you requested. Don't kill the messenger. These articles are from credible people not hate-mongers. Maybe you should take the time to read them.

Oh yes. Yes, I agree completely. Gender-identity issues are mental disorders.

Cross dressing isn't a gender-identity crisis, or issue. Many of these people are very comfortable in their given sex.

As, cross dressing is what we were initially speaking of, yes?


But the reason why I'm not reading them is it's noon here (midnight to my internal clock) and I work tonight. I have precious little time left online.

quote:

I have no time to read through all of these articles, but I have skimmed them, and I stand to my belief.

If you beg me for proof, and I give it to you, you should read it. The last article I posted backs me up completely. You should read it. My response to your posts are my proof. Gender identity issues are very much so mental issues. Maybe not all, but societal factors have a lot to do with gender identiy issues.

I regret bringing myself personally into this discussion, Bushsupporter, but I have gender-dysphoria, and I was raised, happilly, in a Christian home, with both a mother and father. *raises eyebrow* I know many others like this as well.

I have no time to read through all of these articles, but I have skimmed them, and I stand to my belief. The things you are stating are the minority. And simply, gender-identity develops. Your environment has little to nothing to do with how it comes about.


Now. I would Appreciate, a direct response to all three posts.

Here is a perfect one for you.

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html

"an objective consideration of the whole scope of findings in human development research and clinical studies yields an appreciation and recognition of appropriate sex roles in the family and their critical importance to the normal gender identity development of children."

As for the second link, surely such cases do exist, but in the minority as opposed to the majority. This is why we have strict laws for attaining hormones or sexual reassignment surgery. Trained psychologists make it their occupations to determine if gender-dysphoria is a result of the instance that is stated in the second link or a basis of biology.

I would like to make a note that gender-identity is not a psychotic disorder. Neither is homosexuality. They are immensely different things, and categorized as such, affect the person differently/hold different symptoms or family backgrounds.

It is also prudent to note that many psychologists are of the opinion that how you're raised has much to do with whatever "mental disorders" you have, and some hold strong for the other opinion, but no one agrees if it is biological or how you're raised or both.

But I find it slightly offensive that you've aligned disorders such as gender-dysphoria with psychotic disorders. If that is what you have aimed for, well played.

Example of how societal and environmental factors can influence children
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/108/9/685

http://www.narth.com/docs/olson.html

I do not deny any of those, however. I know a great deal of these people (crossdressers, transsexuals, homosexuals, etc.), and many to most of them do not come from these places you mention: broken homes, daycare, homes where family is not important. Quite the opposite, many come from strong family foundations. I can see what you're implying; I am not so daft as to miss it, but your implications simply are not true; they are just your opinion. You have no proof, no studies to back them up. It's just what you see and dislike in the world, so you combine one dislike with another and automatically make a pattern out of it where there is no pattern.

quote:

Those are interesting steryotypes. Any proof to back them up?

So with that quip, you discount my whole argument. OK...

Let's see here.
Do you deny that there are an inordinate number of broken homes?
Do you deny that there are more kids in daycare than there used to be?
Do you deny that there has been a breakdown in the importance of family in recent years?

Those are interesting steryotypes. Any proof to back them up?

Boys are no longer raised like boys and girls are no longer raised like girls. This is a societal problem. We have boken homes with no father around. This means that the two parent family, which serves a very big purpose, is broken. Boys don't grow up to be men, they grow up to be women because they have no male influences in thier lives. Unless the moms date and then the kids have men coming in and out of thier lives all the time which doesn't show them how to be men.

We have parents dropping thier kids off in day care for 8-9 hrs a day, letting someone else raise them (usually a woman).

These problems are societal. There is a reason that 50 yrs ago, boys didn't dress like girls. We had a sense of family responsibilty then. We don;t have that anymore.

Again, you are mixing up terms. Sexual orientation and gender-identity are two completely and unrelated things. Sexuality develops around puberty, when the sex organs start developing?

Reform your reply, and then I'll answer.

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Gender-identity forms at the age of five or six, not at fourteen.

I just don't buy it. People who say "oh, I knew I was gay when I was five." Give me a break. Five year olds are concerned about playing and eating candy, not sexual orientation. It just doesn't work, and I don't care who at the DSM says different. There is something wrong going on in the home or the mind of the person.

Gender-identity forms at the age of five or six, not at fourteen. People who truly have gender-dysphoria (which is listed and detailed in the DSM, by the way) have known since this age.

BUT.

This is not the same as cross-dressing.

Why, then, is it wrong, for men to dress as women over women to dress as men?