This week there were three more suicide bombing in Palestine. The violence is only esalating. What does everyone think of the situation there? Can we reasonably hope for peace? Should we? Is either side "right" or "wrong"? Is anyone totally lost without any notion of the situation?
Originally posted by Enjolras: This week there were three more suicide bombing in Palestine. The violence is only esalating. What does everyone think of the situation there? Can we reasonably hope for peace? Should we? Is either side "right" or "wrong"? Is anyone totally lost without any notion of the situation?
~Enj
Of course there is hope for peace - only if the Palestinians are set free. "The danger is escalating" - it already did; 62 years ago. There is a reason for everything; and rather than tagging these suicide bombings as Muslim extremism let's actually see it's reasons. Zionism is ethnic cleansing. Why don't they put the Zionist perpetrators in Hague along with Milosevic? Milosevic's tactics are far more amateur than those the Zionists displayed. All that remains of that once Muslim land is now only the Gaza Strip; everything else was assimilated by the bourgeoisie hegemony. Jews are still narrowing the Palestinian territory, Palestinians are constantly being oppressed. And the flag of Israel, symbolizing the Jewish control of the territory, is even more abasing. And why did the West support this? Because of the Muslim custom, which does not pertain to the Capitalist mode of production, and whereas if the Jews conquered this land Capitalism would be restored there. End religious and economic supremacy!
First of all i want to touch on what others have previously said about the land. The land belongs to Arabs. The British made a deal with a certain powerful Arab tribe in area of present day Saudi Arabia. If they resist Ottoman force and fight along side the British, then Britian will offer them this land which today is Israel, at the time belonging to the Ottoman Empire. After the war the British broke their promise and gave the land to the Israel-to-be. Also the land throughout history has been in Arab hands, and Arab ancestor hands. At the Zionists invaded, the land was a baren wasteland. It was home to several Arabs of all religions as well as home to religious sights for Islam, Chritainity, and Judiasm.
Certain people have made sure that the history books dont mention that the Zionist movement eradicated and almost exterminated Jewish Arabs.That is something which should also be considered as terrorism. In fact was is so ironic was the Jewish people at the time seeking refuge from such tryants as Hitler applied the same methods of such tyrants.
It is also ridiculous to believe that Israel is hated for "what it is" and not "what it does". As i mentioned before there use to be Jewish Arabs that lived peacefully with Muslim, Christian, and Druze Arabs.
Israel has done several things that arent covered by the news. Apart from the land that has been gifted to Israel, Israel wants more. It is occupying areas that exceed its given borders, know as the Occupied Territories. Everytime Israel supposedly realises palestinian prisoners as an act of peace people tend not to ask on what grounds those innocent palestinians were prisoned.
One last thing is that Israel, and the US makes sure of this, is militarily superior to the its neighbors by far.
However i would like to address this second notion about Israels actions, and so called self-defence rights, after my first notion is replied to. I'll be waiting for anybody who disagrees with me.
Originally posted by phantom119: First off, Israel actually took land that was given to them by the British. And they got the lands that really weren't worth much such as the Negev Desert. It was the very thought of a Jewish state that drove the arabs to war against Israel. And I wouldn't recommend citing Al-Jazeera, its just propaganda. Not like CNN or Fox is much better.
At least it covers things CNN wouldn't touch. And you know what? Arabs didn't actually want to give Palestine to Israel; the British simply declared the land as theirs after the Arab Revolt. That being said, it doesn't matter whether the land was worthless or not: what matters is that people lived there and had to move out.
First off, Israel actually took land that was given to them by the British. And they got the lands that really weren't worth much such as the Negev Desert. It was the very thought of a Jewish state that drove the arabs to war against Israel. And I wouldn't recommend citing Al-Jazeera, its just propaganda. Not like CNN or Fox is much better.
"The price of Freedom is paid in lives" - Adm. Geoffrey Tolwyn
Originally posted by phantom119: You missed the point entirely. What he's saying is that since people view Israel as evil, no one really notices when they try to help the Palestinians. As for Palestinians, it was THEY that didn't believe in toleration. You believe that Israel should tolerate Palestinians, The arabs didn't even give Israel that chance, the day it was created, the muslim countries declared war on Israel, and fortunately, Palestine lost....so why are they complaining that they lost their land when they would've slaughtered every Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel had they won?
You can't say that. You can't prove they would have slaughtered "every Jewish man, woman, and child" in Israel - especially because the Jews and Muslims have been living together peacefully in Palestine since the 1820s. Every old person I've ever asked says: "Yeah, I was good friends with all the Jewish people in my neighbourhood, I even spoke Hebrew. This was until the 1948 war and they drove us out." They're sure to add: "But my Jewish friends were against Israel doing what it did, and what it still does."
And you missed MY point: That Israel has done some pretty bad things, and it's not only the Palestinians who've been intolerant - bad things which most media doesn't cover. I remember this one time, during the Israeli-Lebanon war of 2006, I opened-up al-Jazeera, who had Breaking News that Israel had bombed this monument in Lebanon, I forget where; flip over to CNN, they're talking about cake. MSNBC was talking about baseball. Then Hizballah hit Israel, and the breaking news broke out: "Israel under attack." It's been going on like that forever: al-Jazeera covers the periodic massacres of Palestinians, most news outlets ignores them. Israel tries to suppress them. Watch until the end.
Oh, and of course Arabs didn't tolerate Israel: dude, Israel took over Arabic land, drove people out of their homes. This is what would happen if, for example, Venezuela took over Canada: the US would fight for it. It's simple logic.
And you answer your own question: "so why are they complaining that they lost their land "
So what you're saying is, I can just move-in to your house, sleep in your bed, eat your food and claim your property for my own if Bush says so, because the US owns where you live and I can do it because Bush gave me permission to, all while you lived out in the desert.
I mean, come on, didn't the Israelis drive the Palestinians out of their homes in 1948 and 1967? Didn't they massacre them? Why do you cherry-pick what you want out of history, bushsupporter? Haven't you ever heard of basic human rights?
You missed the point entirely. What he's saying is that since people view Israel as evil, no one really notices when they try to help the Palestinians. As for Palestinians, it was THEY that didn't believe in toleration. You believe that Israel should tolerate Palestinians, The arabs didn't even give Israel that chance, the day it was created, the muslim countries declared war on Israel, and fortunately, Palestine lost....so why are they complaining that they lost their land when they would've slaughtered every Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel had they won?
"The price of Freedom is paid in lives" - Adm. Geoffrey Tolwyn
This is my point of view as an Israeli who is against the ILLEGAL occupation of Palestine.
For forty years Israel’s occupation of the “Occupied Palestinian territories” has been considered “temporary” measures which seem, in fact, to be intended to bring about long-term demographic changes. They have had the result of establishing or increasing the Israeli presence and seizure of land in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, while at the same time reducing or removing the presence of Palestinians in these areas. The Israeli authorities have implemented this policy in the OPT through three main measures: - by supporting openly and also secretly the establishment of Israeli colonies (commonly known as settlements) throughout the OPT. -by confiscating large areas of Palestinian land. -by confining the Palestinian population to smaller and increasingly disconnected areas of land. This last measure is achieved by declaring certain areas to be “closed military areas” and delaying access to Palestinians by building fences and walls, and blocking roads. In the occupied West Bank (a relatively small territory of less than 6,000km²) almost half of the land has been appropriated by Israel. About 550 Israeli military checkpoints and blockades ensure that Palestinians have no opportunity to move about freely. They are barred from using hundreds of kilometres of roads reserved for Israeli use. Palestinians must also obtain special permits from the Israeli army to move between different parts of the West Bank. The latest addition to this complex administration of restrictions is the 700km fence/wall which Israel is currently building, mostly (80 per cent) inside the West Bank. It encircles towns and villages, cutting off tens of thousands of Palestinians from their land and jobs as well as from education and health facilities and other crucial services. These restrictions are imposed on the Palestinian population to facilitate the existence and expansion of Israeli settlements in the OPT. Not, as Israel claims, to prevent Palestinians from entering Israel. If this was the objective, the fence/wall and other restrictions would be placed between Israel and the West Bank and not deep inside the West Bank. The increasing violence and killings in Israel and the Occupied Territories in the few years has brought unspeakable suffering to Palestinians and Israelis. More than 3,200 Palestinians, including more than 600 children have been killed by Israeli forces, and more than 1,000 Israelis, including more than 100 children were killed by Palestinian armed groups. Most of the victims were unarmed civilians who were not taking part in any armed confrontations. Thousands more have been injured, many of them disfigured for life. It is not hard to see that both sides are suffering, however the large-scale destruction by the Israeli army of Palestinian homes, land and properties has made tens of thousands of Palestinians homeless and destitute. The imposition by the Israeli army of curfews and blockades throughout the Occupied Territories has restricted movement and access for 3,500,000 Palestinians to work, education and medical facilities, and other crucial services; and the continuous expansion of Israeli settlements and related infrastructure on occupied Palestinian land has deprived Palestinians of key resources such as land and water. As a result, the Palestinian economy has been virtually destroyed, unemployment and poverty have spiralled.
I AM AN ISRAELI. I know what its like to live in fear but truth of the matter is that Israel pushed palestinians into a little tiny corner of third world conditions and continue to disrespect land agreements.
In 1964, while on trial for sabotage, Nelson Mandela stated the following: “"We of the ANC have always stood for a non-racial democracy, and we shrank from any policy which might drive the races further apart than they already were. But the hard facts were that fifty years of non-violence had brought the African people nothing but more and more repressive legislation, and fewer and fewer rights . . . It would be unrealistic and wrong for African leaders to continue preaching non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force". No one wants to use violence, but I believe that the Israelis have brought this upon themselves and I am completely and utterly ashamed of my american endorsed government for the human rights violations they are inflicting upon palestinians.
There is a point at which both sides are so polarized that the only things that can stop their warfare are the annihilation of one of the combatants or the annihilation of both the combatants. I hope we have not reached that point yet.
Originally posted by Bushsupporter: How many of you remember a few years back when Isreal forcably removed their own citizens from houses and synagogues? Women and children being forced out of their own homes, crying. I notice none of you terror loveres spoke out against that. Why would Isreal do this? Because they were giving some land to the palestinians. What were they given in return? More terror attacks.
So what you're saying is, I can just move-in to your house, sleep in your bed, eat your food and claim your property for my own if Bush says so, because the US owns where you live and I can do it because Bush gave me permission to, all while you lived out in the desert.
I mean, come on, didn't the Israelis drive the Palestinians out of their homes in 1948 and 1967? Didn't they massacre them? Why do you cherry-pick what you want out of history, bushsupporter? Haven't you ever heard of basic human rights?
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originally posted by bushsupporter Another moronic statement by speed. You are very good at being stupid.The Jews are the chosen people of God. He says so in the Old and New Testaments.
Okay, you HAVE to be kidding me. THIS is your response? THIS? You're a big JOKE. They'd probably rename "jokes" to your name if you were worth it. Wow, talk about being childish.I'm sorry I have to insult you like this, but you're a fucking idiot.
Oh and Jews aren't the Chosen People in the Islamic Qura'an, if you're going through with religion. Please stop cherry-picking info.
And let's all remember that Isreal is the true and sole owner of that land. Anything they give up is simply for the sake of peace.
You claim to be a christian, thus you must view other religions as inherently flawed and false. Israelis claim that the land is rightfully theirs because God(the false Jewish version)gave it to them. But if their religion is false because it conflicts with your true religion which is christianity, how can the land be rightfully theirs?
Another moronic statement by speed. You are very good at being stupid. The Jews are the chosen people of God. He says so in the Old and New Testaments. Why would they be "chosen" even though they do not beleive in Christ as the Savior? I have no idea, but they are. Nice try, but I do not subscribe to the Jew hating version of Christianity that you refer to. Pleas try again idiot.
Their land is legally thiers. Who in this room disputes that they hold a legal right to the land. The land, which belonged legally to England, was given to Isreal after WWII. It was theirs to give and they did. Now Isreal holds the land legally and they can do anything they like to it. They could keep it all if they wanted. They can give it away if they want (which they do). How many of you remember a few years back when Isreal forcably removed their own citizens from houses and synagogues? Women and children being forced out of their own homes, crying. I notice none of you terror loveres spoke out against that. Why would Isreal do this? Because they were giving some land to the palestinians. What were they given in return? More terror attacks.
"Freedom is not Free"-Korean War Memorial, Washington DC.
Originally posted by Bushsupporter: In this debate Palestine is always treated as the small opressed child while Isreal is treated as the agressive abusive father. Notsojoey is right, both sides have resposibility. It is Palestine who allows the bombing and killing of innocents to continue. Isreal has a simple right to protect themselves. And let's all remember that Isreal is the true and sole owner of that land. Anything they give up is simply for the sake of peace. Palestine must give something up as well. I would contend that as long as a terrorist organization runs the PLO, Isreal should not sit down for talks.
You're making it sound like Palestine are the only culprits, though. It's not like there haven't been Israeli massacres of Palestinians over the years - including a huge one on 9/11. And why would you say Israel is the "rightful" owner of that land? Because they conquered it? Because, you know, they had no right to destroy people's homes so they could move-in...And if it's because the State of Israel was there 1000 years ago, by that logic the US would have to give itself up to the Native Americans...I can't really see where you're coming from.
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posted by speed God(the false Jewish version)gave it to them
And let's all remember that Isreal is the true and sole owner of that land. Anything they give up is simply for the sake of peace.
You claim to be a christian, thus you must view other religions as inherently flawed and false. Israelis claim that the land is rightfully theirs because God(the false Jewish version)gave it to them. But if their religion is false because it conflicts with your true religion which is christianity, how can the land be rightfully theirs?
In response to sambongo: Rwanda, during it's genocide, had a UN Peace Keeper Mission stationed there, under the command of some Canadian general who's name I can't remember. Anyway, he and his troops, as the fighting escalated, attempted to maintain order. However, in doing so, both sides viewed the peace keepers as either a member of the other side, working for opposing interests, or just another opposing gang of thugs with guns. Either way, they were sporadically attacked, and were forced to pull out of Rwanda, preceding the second half of the genocide. (I'm not entirely sure about the timeline of this, feel free to correct me. This is just the general gist of what happened)
Were they to remain, they all probably would have died, or they would have had to fight quite savagely, which would have broken their mandate. Quite seriously, on the level (numerically) that peacekeepers and other forces with the same idea are sent in to places, they simply become party to the conflict. There were 300 peace keepers in the capital of Rwanda at the time (again, I think. Might not be entirely correct).
If you really want to pacify an area by "sword", it must be done with oppressively overwhelming force, and even that doesn't work sometimes. In fact, off the top of my head, I can only think of one time where that worked, that being during the Punic Wars, when Rome went so far as to salt the ground.
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY RIVERRUNNING: "b) Invade and force obedience yourself. Watch Gaza turn into the new iraq (or even more so) should you put your own troops there to keep both factions apart from each other. (an argument against peacekeepers: rwanda)"
What, exactly, do you mean by this riverrunning ? What is this vague reference to Rwanda? Please reply.
In this debate Palestine is always treated as the small opressed child while Isreal is treated as the agressive abusive father. Notsojoey is right, both sides have resposibility. It is Palestine who allows the bombing and killing of innocents to continue. Isreal has a simple right to protect themselves. And let's all remember that Isreal is the true and sole owner of that land. Anything they give up is simply for the sake of peace. Palestine must give something up as well. I would contend that as long as a terrorist organization runs the PLO, Isreal should not sit down for talks.
"Freedom is not Free"-Korean War Memorial, Washington DC.
This is a good point, as well as your follow up points. My only concern is that you are giving Palestine free reign in their borders. Why doesn't Israel have any input on changing their borders? Perhaps I don't understand something.
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Jerusalem should become an international city with control from neither side. This was outlined in the UN proposition. Both Palestinians and Israelis would have equal benefits in this cit
I highly doubt, that under any circumstances, Israel will give up Jerusalem to an international police force. Besides, as of right now both Israelis, Palestinians, and everyone else has equal rights in the city of Jersusalem because Israel respects their rights.
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A gradual withdrawal of Israeli occupation from Palestine.
Another good point that does not depend on the 'good will" of Palestine.
As for the development of West Bank, why isn't Palestine forced to help develope Israel so Israelis don't move to the West Bank. This is my major area of concern with your peace outline, for Palestine and Israel to come to peace they must work together - Israel can not handle the entire burden.
"I call them like I see them any my visision is always 20/20" - notsojoey
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