You have every right to think that I'm not helpful. In my estimation, you aren't particularly helpful, so I won't deny your right to think so of me.

I think making young people realize that if they want to be taken seriously (not getting taken seriously being one of the biggest complaints I get from the young people I work with), they need to present themselves in a clear and responsible manner. They need to be able to respond to non-attacking criticism of their arguments and recognize it as such rather than becoming irrational and defensive. They need to be able to support what they are saying and express themselves in ways that are meaningful to other people. I think illuminating these issues is helpful (of at least as much value than you telling clinically depressed kids to stop whining and get over themselves and certainly more helpful than wasting your time trying to get me to feel bad).

This is not intended to belittle anyone or make anyone feel inadequate, as I covered in the "spelling and grammar" board. I have never intended to make anyone feel bad (with a few obvious exceptions and usually then only against people who I thought were capable of defending themselves). Please get your panties out of a bunch.

Jookly you should have put a caption under that picture that read grr grr... or something along those lines!

Thanks jookly. I dont think I have laughed this hard in a while. Now as for brooke35, hook line and sinker. The point I want to make is that this is a site that was created for youths, not a site where people who are old like us should come and tell youths they are wrong and need to have there facts straight and in a reasonal matter. These are the people we should be helping not making them feel inadequate and belittled. It is not my job nor yours to tell someone they are wrong, only to provide facts and help them make an educated desicion about issues affecting the world around them. These are youths not teachers or other adults who already have a profession and set way in life. They have enough troubles with out people like us jumping on them and telling them they are wrong or foolish. So please remember the next time you want to belittle someone that you could be hurting more that helping them!

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You're pretty much twisting what I say because you don't like it and you want me to look stupid and condescending and petty. That's fine...it's totally within your right to do so.

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Picture of a scary baby:

I'm not trying to "get you," nor do I find you (big bad Dumars) particularly threatening. You admit to being "after me," yet go on to say that I should stop taking things personally--which is it?

I don't think anyone has ever called me self-absorbed before. Once again, I'm not trying to convince anyone that I never make mistakes, because I do, and I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong (in general, though admittedly sometimes I get pulled away from discussion and into debate). You're pretty much twisting what I say because you don't like it and you want me to look stupid and condescending and petty. That's fine...it's totally within your right to do so. I know that I'm not stupid, I know that I'm no more condescending than you are (hardly a credit to me), and I know that what might seem petty to you is just my way of telling people that if they want to be taken seriously they need to get their facts together and present them in a reasonable manner. This is all I have ever said.

Please stop baiting me into trying to defend myself. I don't have to defend myself to you or anyone else for that matter. It just makes you look like a jerk, and I don't think you probably are, I think I've just gotten under your skin for some reason. I'm sorry that that happened, but am not sorry for anything I have said.

To brooke35 Ok you got me. NOT I am not treating you like you are stupid. What I am doing is just helping you realize that you are not the almighty know it all that you project to the rest of the boards you post on. You make mistakes just like everyone else and so do I. Were human and to er is human, but when you trounce on everyone else point of view then you are going to get treated the same! Now as for the point of this being personal, that is not the case. Once again you are bringing this back to self and that is not what this is about at all and you know that, so please stop acting like a child. Remember the world does not revolve around you, contrary to your opinion. Now lets move on and debate this over time. You must be tired of having big bad dumars after you so please just stop taking this personally.

Palestine doesn't want their own state, they want their homeland. They have been fighting with Isreal for 55 years and the Jews for more than centuries over Palestine (Isreal).

Actually, I didn't know what she was talking about in reference to the whole "4 years thing." It escapes me how someone might think such a thing.

And as I've said before (re: Christams), occasional typos don't bother me so much as bad logic, flagrant misuse of words, and the assertion that I can't ascribe one belief to an entire state: ISRAEL IS A THEOCRACY!!! JUDAISM IS THEIR STATE RELIGION!!! Obviously this is not to say that all residents of Israel have one singular belief--hence the problem with the Palestinians!

Please don't treat me like I'm stupid just because you don't like me. I don't particularly like you. Why you gotta take everything I say as a personal affront to you? And you call me selfish?

What are you like the almighty supreme expert on everything? You get upset and type cuss words (Badly at that) so that you can validate your point. Which if anything makes you look foolish! Then you have the gall to get mad when someone corrects you when you are wrong or mistaken, but yet the very same thing that you dont want people to use on you, you inturn do that very same thing and make yourself look like a hypocrite. Come on who are you to judge what someone else has typed or wrote on this board? You know very well what noisegirl2003 meant when she typed 4 years not meaning only four years. You are so foolish, but yet you call everyone else stupid? How is it that you cant see your own flaws? Please explain to me how it is that you know that all of the isrealies and palestinians dont celebrate christmas? What are you talking about? Sure most of them dont but please dont generalize the whole state to one belief. What you wrote is called religious profiling and you are foolish to think that all of them donot celebrate christmas. Yes thats christmas not CHRISTAMS, what is that? The foolish christmas holiday only celebrated by people who act like fools?

Um, Israel and Palestine have been fighting for closer to 60 years, pretty much since the current state of Israel, not so much 4 years.

And I don't really think it bothered the Israelis (Jews, mind you) or the Palestinians (Muslims mostly) that Christams was ruined, seeing as how they don't celebrate it.

Israel and Palistine have been fighting 4 years. Take it from the Israeli point of view. Lots of them died too. People there couldn't even have a good Xmas! It's all about retaliation. One side attacks then the other. They are fighting over the Holy Land. It is an important part of our world. Soon there will be none left!
Why did someone say kill Iraqi civillians every day? Why are they to blame for their government. Innocent lives mustn't be taken because of Saddam!

What has Palestine done to acheive a peace that their supporters claim on the lives of their children they want?

Kill Iraqi civilians every single day.

"I know how many palestinians died!!!
But i also know how many Israelis died!"

how many lives?? how many more?

How do you get off saying those kind of stuff?!
We die to!!!this is exactly what i was saying about you only thinking of palestinians.
I was born in Israel and i lived there for about 6 years since 1996.
I know how many palestinians died!!!
But i also know how many Israelis died!
Children too!! so dont give me that crap, i mean does it realy matter how many died from each side?there are still so many people who are dying because of BOTH goverments, and if you tell me that you agree 100% with your goverment id think thats just a little fib...
Just to remind you tho...if you want you can go read a similar story about the english and the indians...go see who lives in that land called CANADA now...the english but whatever,read about it and you'll see what i mean.

You know what, no matter how much we argue we we'll never agree so i think we should just let it go and i think you should go to this site and read a bit about it there:
www.seedsofpeace.org
have fun!!

i haven't been following the discussion, and i expect my views have already been voiced by other people many times over, considering the numbers of pages; so i won't bother going into all that.
I've been studying israel/palestine in school and i've found a website that seems to cover the history in a pretty balanced and unbiased way. There's so much on the conflict on the web that is just someone trying to persuade you of their opinion.

if you just want to know the facts so you can form your own opinions, go here.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

I just hope the issue gets solved someday, sooner rather than later would be good!

1st of all i want to tell you that i believe in just & comprehensive peace in which both sides live side by side on this land without occupation or humilation.

But who is blocking the way?
Who refused to withdraw from the land occupied in 1967?

Who refused security the security council resolutions?

Who refused jerusalem to be the capital of both states?& wanted to seize it for ever?

Which side does the children get killed? more than 300 kids in the palestinian side, one of them a 9 months old infant had a direct hit from a tank shell into her chest & abdomen.

By the way I'm not palestinian, but a fairplyer

And don't say that you know better than me because you lived there once , because I've lived there all my life..

www.robincmiller.com/melinkfr.htm

Enter this & learn the truth

Ok "fairplayer"
Do not try to tell me whats going on there because i probably know better than you!
I lived there and i went thru the terror every single day! so dont give me that crap!
And you can't tell me about one incident, (even tho there is many more)that happend because i could give you hundreds from the israeli side to.

"Zionist racism"? do you know what your talking about?
Isreali's are defending there right to live in their country!! their deffending there children who are being murdered!
You see, your problem is that your close minded.
You dont give a crap on what happens to israelis, you only care about palestinians,unlike me who cares about them too and does not justify what isrealis do to them either or the the Israeli repression & occupation.
And to tell you the truth, i dont have much faith i find it hard to believe that god could let so many people die like that.
But no matter what you say, you'll still sound like a racist to me because you care only about you people and you dont care about others.
You should stop trying to justify anything they do because i dont justify what isrealis do either Nothing justifies MURDER! no matter who does it!

well..i guess we're going back to arguing again. i know all of you want to change everyone's opinions to be your own but as much as you try thats very unlikely to happen...so i wouldn't waste your time.
I think that there definatly should be both a Palestinian and Israeli state. I don't think it's very fair that Israel has most of the land so i think that they both should get an equal part of the land and they can both have their own goverments..etc. and most of all israel should stop the occupation. thats the only way that there is ever going to be peace because the palestians are doing suicide bombings etc. because of the occupation. so if the occupation would end then there is a good chance for peace.

I don't say palestinians are always on the right track for their struggle for freedom (as the suicide bombs against civilians),but not like you "superstarAngel" who justifies the Israeli repression & occupation by the bible & If you had all this faith ..Where were you when the Israeli's surrounded "jesus' place of birth" by tanks and shelled it by helicopters .

I'll give you an example of what's going on there from the jewish writer "Noam Chomsky" in his book"World orders Old & New" :
" A palestinian girl'Intissar al-atar' weeks before the intifada broke there was shot & killed in a school yard by a resident of a nearby jewish settlement.
The murderer 'ShimonYifrah' was arrested a month later & released on bail because the court determined that "the offense is not severe enough"to warrant detention.Then he was acquitted of all charges except causing death by negligence.
The concluded that he only intended to shock the girl by firing his gun at her in a schoolyard not to kill her, so"this is not a case of criminal person who has to be punished,deterred,& taught a lesson by imprisoning him".
He was given a seven-month suspended sentence,while settlers in the courtroom broke out in song & dance.

By the way "angel" I don't accept your cheap acquisation of me hating jews because I don't ,I hate the racist Zionism because it manipulate the jews & christians for their goal.

I believe that both sides are equally at fault. The Jews dispersed to Western Europe many centuries ago, so the Palestinians settled in present-day Israel. Well, after Hitler and the Holocost, the Jews fled back to Jerusalem, their holy land, in order to escape persecution. At that time, the Palestinians had settled, but the Jews wanted their land back. And in 1948, the country of Israel was officially established again. Now there are Palestinians and Israelis who want the same land. The only way they believe they can get control of "their" land again is by violence. The Israelis shoot innocent Palestinians, and the Palestinians kill Jews (and other Palestinians) by suicide bombings. Neither side is correct.

Joey, you say that Israel is God's holy land, or something like that. Yes, in the Bible, the Jews are God's chosen people, and the land in which they reside is "holy" as well. The United States stand behind Israel, but not because they're right. The US is predominately Christian, and was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs (e.g. The US Constitution). The Jews are "God's" people, but Christians are God's followers, too. So the US standing beside Israel = the US standing behind God himself. That's what all of this conflict comes off as, even though it is not written in any formal document, because we don't live in a theocracy.

And yes, I believe that the entire discrepency involves the different religions, but I believe it's mainly over the land which they believe to be sacred to their particular religion.

Also, I don't understand why Christians act so benevolent towards the Jews as if there has always been peace. Like, Christians "stand behind" Israel and the Jews who have always been God's people, when Christians are the people who started the Crusades where hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed. Seems a bit off.. hmm..

That's what I think, anywho.