Actually Snatch, the only people who do have a valid opinion are not jewish or muslim because they are not bias. So stop telling everyone to shut up. Post an arguement.

It is a religious AND a political issue. I've said this before, please don't try to talk about what none of you understand. Only us Jews and the Palestinians really have any say in this matter, because we're the only ones that understand. Other Muslim nations do have a voice, but it doesn't mean so much. Considering they say they feel sorry for the Palestinians but they won't let too many Palestinians into their country to live, because that many people would **** up your country's economy. I am a Jew living in the US and as such I am a US Citizen and Israel is my homeland. I don't expect other Americans who aren't Jewish to understand the situation between Israel and the Palestinians. I *DO* expect you to not try to understand. Because you can't, you won't, and you never will. You have to be Jewish or Muslim (Specifically a Palestinian) to understand the situation and have any valid opinion. Thank you.

I totally agree that the Word of GOD will be applied and will have a meaning any time and any where, but as OshortyO said that the bible was written by unperfect people that found the contradiction in the Bible itself (the old and the new testemant). and as Muslim ,the word of God is the Holy Kuran where it was'nt written through divine inspiration of men, it was REVEALED by Gabriel(PBUH) to Mohammed (PBUH), where no contradiction is found, even with the Messanger's life writings (The Sunna of Mohammed(PBUH)).

I want to add also ,if u heard about (Birnaba Bible) which is the true unfabricated Bible. it is in the Vatican right now but nobody believes in it. it is not allowed for it to be distributed or to be out of the Vatican. Furthermore the Holy Bible and the Holy Torah ,both was sent by God to the children of Israel only, not to all human nature, because of their sins, whereas the Holy kuran, the last book sent by God came to all human nature and to whole world.

Genius, i found your post interesting. I do believe that God knew what would happen in the future and still knows what will happen. His words wont expire, of course they wont. I understand what you say about the bible, but after all the bible is something written by unperfect people of a perfect being. Anyway, I think that we are drifting apart from the subject. I think one of the problems is that people take everything that the bible says and translates it into real life.

Sorry this response took so long, but i don't have a computer at school:
i just wanted to make myself clear, because maybe i muddled through what i was saying-
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21. Okay. The Bible is God's Word as written through divine inspiration of men (the authors), and means what it means (no "i interpret this, you interpret that"). It's pretty obvious that God didn't type up a memo, labeled it "Bible", and dropped it down here.
About what i said about the Word being forever (no updates needed)- don't you think God knows what will happen millions of years from now? If so, he wouldn't give us information that would expire over the years (our day). For example: did you know that in Luke 21:27-28 Jesus describes his return and how all will see Him? That wouldn't have made sense to anyone back then since it would have been impossible for everyone to see Him at the same time. TODAY it's possible through TV, Internet, etc.
About the land distribution: territory isn't decided by a system of "I'm here now, so it's mine", but rather from distribution through a higher authority (ie buying land from the government). Initially, God (the highest authority) gave the Israelites the land (see Exodus 23:20-33; Numbers 34). Regarding the Canaanites- God told Moses:"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you [Canannites], and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images [...] And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Numbers 33:50-53). The Israelites are God's chosen people because back in the day people just did whatever they wanted and worshipped idols and stuff. The Israelites were the ones who worshipped the Lord.

Kahira, you say that Palestine could not compete with the American weapons we gave Israel. I find that ironice because during the Cold War russia provided the Arab nations with arms that were sufficent to, and usually better, than American weapons.

I am forced to needlessly, once again, comment on the sites given to me that claimed Israel had committed war crimes. I would like it noted that these sites had no records that reflected court dates, procedding, punishments, evidence or court location. It must also be noted that those sites were not backed by ANY international war crime court. I was simply provided with sites that said "Israel committed war crimes because we say they did." Find me proof from an international court of law that the UN or NATO backs.

As for the question, "I think the Camp David treaty's running out(have to look that up).God only knows what will happen" It is very obvious what will happen. Israel will annihlate the Arab nations and all the Arab citizens will have to find refuge in Europe, South America or Africa. Israel will not let them share their land becasuse they would not let Jews live on their land. We will not take them because of our war in terrorism. A Israelie war on Iraq and Iran would be most definitley the high point of their campaign because America would help in exchange for help in North Korea. It would also be a delight to have cheap gas once again.

I read in the paper that Israelie radicals are pushing for laws that will not permit Arabs to buy land. Sharon backs this. This is completley legit because Israel was founded as a Jewish state. Not a Jewish and Arab state. If people want to complain about this violatings human rights, than they should see what would happen to a Jew in Egypt or Lebannon who was allowed to own land.

Marine,there were Jews writing in that site.I don't even know why we bother arguing with you when everything's right before your eyes and you're deliberately blind to it.Enough of that.The links given were highly informative(thanks for them)and should be enough.The info stated on them is hardly propaganda and Marine,you could find whatever site you want if you'll just look.The CNN stated that Sharon's war crimes were considered 'inadmissible'(by Israeli court,I believe).Don't you believe they'll be tried for crimes or show proof in the media they control to enrage the world with things they approve of.
As for Genius,I've read of Jews who are against Zionism,including a Rabbi that stated that they were the Chosen people and they did get the land (centuries,millenia ago)but that they lost the land because God's promise was not unconditional,and because they broke those rules hte land was taken from them(in other words,they sinned too much).Besides,doesn't the Bible say(according to some Christians on this site;I haven't actually looked it up) that you can't get to heaven unless you believe in Jesus(as a Savior)?Jews don't;and if the New Testament's a continuation of the Old the Children of Israel as the chosen ones must be no longer true unless they believe in Jesus(ie.Christians).To believe otherwise seems contradictory and I'd love to see how you explain that away.

againstwar,I also heard of impending war,particularly with Egypt.I think the Camp David treaty's running out(have to look that up).God only knows what will happen

Marine: first of all,what fighters and what weaponry the Palestinians had were pretty much wiped out in Jenin-do you think they ever had anywhere near the kind of arms(or tanks,planes,etc.)to make it possible for them to attack they heavily guarded military positions,where tanks,and all the weapons America could provide is just an arms length away from the enemy?
I have to mention that the Koran doesn't mantion ANYTHING about virgins for martyrs in Heaven.Also,the Koran is not so simple that you can understand it with such meagre knowledge-each verse(or most of them)have both general or symbolical meanings as well as meanings directly concerning the subject at hand(such as an account of one of the prophets' stories,etc.)and to understand it you shouldn't pick and choose verses,but regard sequencing,verses elsewhere relating as well as understand the mattaer through both the Koran and Hadith(the sayings or explanations of the Prophet).Besides that,you would only be reading a translation from Arabic which may not convey the proper meaning.The issue with Israel isn't one with unbelievers,it's one with a bunch of people who came from all over and created one of or the biggest refugee problems in modern times,as well as the other stuff Dija mentioned.

liltrumpetgirl,thanks(though I think you meant the Palestinian )
Let's see what the last page says..

well if ur saying that the the Bible is the word of god ,i dont know why there is that contradiction in the old and new testement, the new testement written by some individual.
plus if the Bible says that the children of israel are the chosen people , i understand that the bible was directed to the children of Israel, and it will be totally unfair from God to chose some people just because of race.
In my opinion and from the simple logic, God,s chosen people are those who worship him the right way, who treat people the right way and who aplies justice in his living, this totally contradicts of what the people of Israel are doing now of killing and injustice.

the Holy Kuran also says that that the jews were the best people.... the best in terms of what : in terms that God gave them the gift of children, money and power, but they did not follow God all mighty, killing many profits that was sent to them by God.

Yes, i wanted to explain 2 things:
The first: when marine16 refers to the canaanites, which is what I was talking about, he refers to the people that lived in Canaan. During the 2nd millenium BC the Israelites gradually subyugated to their cities, this was long before the roman empire, which started forming like in 509 BC, (when the Roman Republic started). So in between these two event, the land distribution changed we will never be exactly sure of anything that is said in the bible, refering to distribution of land, and all that I mentioned before. Of course there were divided cities and lands when the bible was written but they were not divided as in the time the Canaanites existed.

And the second thing: the bible was not written by God, what is said there is what the prophets understood from the message of God.

And the second thing: the bible was not written by God, what is said there is what the prophets understood from the message of God.
An example: If you see chapters like The Apocallypse, youll probably dont understand much of it, because its the prediction of what will happen in the future written by someone from a long time ago who doesnt know technology or how things will be.
I didnt meant to say that God was obsolete, i wanted to tell that things change through times, and even though God is eternal, things like division of land, and where people live are not eternal, and as time passes it changes. So dont get me wrong.

oh, and i wanted to respond to what 0shorty0 said about applying the Bible to today's society:

The Bible is the Word of God, and God's Word never fades- "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth forever." 1 Peter 1:24-25 (also Isaiah 40:8). "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:35.

The Word of God does not need to be updated in order to be applied to present day society; society should be modeled on what God says. That is a huge misconception prevalent in today's society, that God should conform to US. Who are we compared to God? The good book has lasted THOUSANDS of years-why? Because God said it would. God doesn't become "obsolete" over time, He's forever. Needless to say, the Bible is not composed of men's opinions. And lastly- the time period in which it was written, there WERE provinces and territories and nations. This is the time of the Roman Empire, remember.

I just wanted to say that as a Christian, I fully believe that the people of Israel are God's chosen people. According to the Bible, the land that they are occupying was given to them by God. It's not really good to be messing with God's peeps: "For the Lord your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against yur enemies, to save you" (Deuteronomy 20:4). That's God talking to the ppl of Israel about battle. Guess we'll soon see.

i read a lot of the messages in the board, like since page 18 to 10 and then from 5 to the first or something like that, and its amazing but this board is the small model of the real argument between these countries. I think that a lot of people here are quite radicals and only repeat the same thing over and over, and seem not to read anything, just talk about their opinions and how the others dont back their info with facts, I guess some of you dont know what facts are, cuz simply you do not recognize them. If we, a little group of teenagers, who kind of see the things in an objective way because most of us are from countries not DIRECTLY involved in this war, cant agree on anything, then the real countries and the real people involved will hardly ever agree. Its a sad thing, but maybe it will open our minds, and well start trying to find common opinions.

Well, the bible thing caught my attention because the thing is, that the bible was written a looooong time ago, when countries and lands werent politically administrated and divided as they now are, where a piece of land was not what it represents now, where most of the people tended to move around a lot... So we cant completely understand what they were saying, cuz we are all different and have various ways of interpretating stuff, and as the people who wrote the bible, and the people from this era no longer exist, we cannot be sure that our opinions based on the bible are factible. (i dont know if that word exists in english). I dont agree with any side, or I agree with both, if thats possible

Israel is going to attack very soon the Arab world starting by its neighbours, I don't know if it will ever admit it's mistakes but I know that it's about to make way more. America is going to back it up under the title of "war against terrorism".
I've been away for a while but I can see that most of you haven't changed. I won't comment more... but I'm sure of my info, I don't know what excuse it's going to use yet.. they'll figure something out..
Remember me when it happens.

Mr "QUOTE" well i think i gave u the full reference and if u are interested more , u can find them urself, i dont have the english transliteration of the Kuran on me. and STILL u are not giving me ur QUOTE about what u'v said about the Kuran.

actually i cant believe what u have said that Israel will admit and show the world what it has done. Are u kidding! man u made me laugh . do u think that the 1st world will stand anymore with Israel if this was the case; do u think the people wherever they are, will accept what the Israelis have done and will do. its all propaganda man , the most popular news channels are owned by jews and everyone knows that. (e.g Ted TURNER owning the holding share of the CNN) all what u see in the news is not the whole story,. i dont think a war criminal will allow the media to show every thing. european and arabic journalists shot and injured ( an italian and a french man and more others),not allowing them to enter specific areas in the occupied land and u can guess what happens there.

dont forget the quote!!!

quote:

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I did not ask for an extreme Arab site against the hollocaust of the Arabs.

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Well I dont think you have to be extreme to be against hollocaust. and how do you know that they did not happen. Because someone told you? Just because someone tells you it is that way doesnt mean it is.

Locutus, I went to your links. Thank you for posting them, they were quite amusing. Please do not waste any more space like that again. I asked for proof. I did not ask for a magaizines web site saying that Israel is guilty of war crimes, I did not ask for an extreme Arab site against the hollocaust of the Arabs. I did not ask for radical sites that are against Israels exsistence. Your sites proved nothing except for the fact that just because Arabs accuse Israel of war crimes does not mean they happened. Give me hard proof, not propoganda. Find me documents from international courts of laws. If Israel is guilty than this shouldn't be a problem, because they are open to the public.

As for forbidding war crimes investigation, that is a war crime and they would have been punished. Find proof that Israel was punished for not allowing a war crimes investigation. Find proof that there was even grounds for an investigation.

Please provide me with real proof. No more Arab propoganda web sites or teaching. No more lies or bending the trueth. Find me links to official documents that proves Israelie soldiers, officers and politicians guilty of war crimes. Find me prrof that the Hebrew religion official pronounces the muslims as pigs. Find proof that the Israel government sanctions war crimes. Also answer my question on my last posts.

Regarding the war crimes, it is common knowledge and has been documented that atrocities were and still are regularly commited by israeli troops, here are some various sites that contain information.



http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine.html

http://www.desert-voice.net/israeli_attrocities.htm

http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/arab-israeli-war.html

http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine46.html

http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine46.html



As for official recognition of this, the statement "The winners write the history books" certainly applies here, in that the people running the terrorist state of israel haven't been convicted of their crimes.Israel even forbade a war crimes investigation in Jenin:



http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine54.html



A war crimes investigation was opened on Sharon: http://www.desert-voice.net/sharon_crimes.htm



This cartoon from Minimum Security sums up the situation somewhat:

Find me religous proof that the Jewish religoin call muslims pigs. Do not use some book that only applies to a few extreme jews. And Dija, please qoute the Kuran. Do not just write down titles. Also, please tell us all what Islam thinks and teaches of Jews.

My offer still stands to you Dija, find proof that the government sanctions "their children, parents killed cold blooded, women raped , babies shot in the head , houses buldozed , insult , hatred , racism " Find me proof that the Israel government encourages these things and takes credit for them. Just because the country you live wants to anhilate Israel says Israel of guilty of those things does not mean it is true? If Israel's government backs these things they would not hide it so you should have no problem finding proof for me.

Dija claims Sharon "did" commit massacres but I would like to see legal proof that he was found guilty of committing war crimes.

As in regards to liltrumpetgurls question. Israel is retaliating due to a threat against their exsistence. That is not terrorism. Palestinian civilians, not the government sanctioned military attack Israelie civilians simply because they do not like them. They have no reason to committ these horrible crimes because Israel lets them live in peace independently from Israelie rule.

Also, if you people think Israel is so awful, how come they have never engaged in combat until their own people have died? Also answer how come Israel always is on the defenseive and never on the offensive till their homeland is attacked?

And I still would like to know your rationale regarding Israel fighting for their exsistence. Do you still believe, Dija, that Israel should allow violent attacks against their civilians and let foriegn foes invade their soil un opposed? I am sure you do think that Dija and you arab country is very proud of you.

Also, please find proof os Israelie war crimes. Find me legal documents that declare Israel officer, soldiers or politicians guilty of war crimes.

just to add marine if the kuran states such things like what u have stated, i dont think people will ever imbrace Islam. while islam nowadays is the most spreading religion, and people knowing about Islam and studying it are accepting it even more and more. the things u just said is totally unlogical and not accepted in any thought. hope u people change ur idea about islam.