Marine:
my proof in the kuran where it says to only fight the disbelievers when they invade only is as follows:

- The second surat, Surat Albakara (the cow) verses 190, 191, 192, 193 and 194.
- The 109th surat, Surat Alkafiroon (the disbelievers) verses 1,2,3,4,5 and 6
there is more verses in other surats carrying the same meaning but I think this is enough for now, and I wish u have a look at the english version of the Kuran (transliteration) so u can make sure. I gave my proof, now can u give me ur proof from where did u get in The Kuran stating that 'the believers (for Islam) should fight the non believers (everyone who isn't Islamic)".

it is the Zionist book ( the Talmud) written in the beginning of the nineteen century not only saying that but also saying that it is ritous to kill and steel non jews (not only muslims) , u can also have a look at that book , I don’t have it on me

man don’t u see the TV , don’t u see the actions committed by the Israelis; people now are living on the streets, Gineen masacre is enough (before 3 months), every day people die and the reason why, is that they are arabs. regarding racism , the summit for fighting racism that was carried in south Africa 2001. more than 3000 non governmental organisations and some governmental orgs believed that Zionism (Israel) is a racist movement, and the USA said that if Israel was blamed to be racist it will quit the summit, and yes the USA quit the summit. If want I will send loads of slides showing u the crimes committed by israel that is unshown on western broad casting channels.

Aimee:
well I appreciate ur thought , here we go some people are THINKING and trying to find facts about whats happening, Sharon didn’t only comitted the masacres in 1982 he did a lot, jeneen being the latest ,and the crimes in 1982 , every body agrees on it but the only witness who took part was assasinated before 6 months. who assasinated him ? u have a guess.

also to note many students from the UK went to Palestine and saw many things , and they admitted that whats happening is not fair being with the palestinian side, even the peace seekers from all over the world, from America, Europe, Asia and Africa come to palestine and stand with the palestinians side by side. why don’t they go for Israel? the palestinians are the terrorists right!! I think they see whats happening in their own eyes.

the reason they are attacking isreal is because isreal used to be their's. the jews were supposed to get a bit of land down there and ended up taking much more land. then you could say that it was their's to begin with because they were the rituous brother and deserved it and the father thought they deserved it. then others can say that the muslims own the land because they were the older brother and no matter what he did, a deal's a deal and they shouldn't be blammed for one ancestor's silly mistake.

i say, if you're brothers, why cant you both live there? I mean really...

You want to know why people in the middle east both jew and muslim have been suffering? it's all in history, in the bible and other religious scriptures. And why did all those people have to die on 9-11? because the US is so obsessed with going by the bible so that they can be saved in the end.

my opinion is that such a thing is selfish and that to take sides just to look good before some god will get you no where when and if the end does come.

-later
PHOEBE

I forgot to say that was to marine. I kinda agree with you aimie

Liltrumpetgurl, was that question for me? If so, please explain. I'm saying if Sharon really was in charge of the killings, I can kinda see part of why Palestinians are attacking (although I'm still not quite sure totally). That's it.

you say is terrorism he says is retalliation. retalliation for what? their land, their country, their state of being.

Yes, Marine16, I am very different from the terrorists and do not say that I am not. If you cannot see the reasons behind their attacks, then you are stupid. He wasn't going to be tried just because some Muslims believed he was guilty. There were investigations. The army that killed were corresponded to him and there was more investigating going on. It was stopped because Sharon doesn't live in Belgium. They didn't find him innocent. They didn't even finish. They should find out the truth.
I did not mean that I understand/support their terrorism. I'm looking for reasons. Why are they attacking Israel? If we don't know why, there's not much of a chance of stopping it.

Dija, please qoute in the Kuran where it says to only fight the disbelievers when they invade you. Also, please qoute an official jewish religous document that call muslims pigs. Also please find proof that the Israelie government sanctioned "their children, parents killed cold blooded, women raped , babies shot in the head , houses buldozed , insult , hatred , racism " And if you do find that, find the its counterpart. The PLO mission statement is full of it.

Aimee, Sharon can not be tried for warcrimes just because muslims "believe" he is guilty. There must be proof. Also, Belgium is not the only places where international criminals can be tried. Why isn't the UN trying him in a different court? If you can understand terrorism Aimee, than you are no different than the terrorists.

Liltrumpetgirl, Palestine did elect their leader. A leader who is KNOWN terrorists and heads the PLO that only cares about deystroying Israel. A leader who encouraged and funded terrorists attacks against Israel. He is a roque and incomptontent leader who laughs at peace, that is why Bush wants him out.

they say they want to stop terrorism and spread democracy but they dont care what the peopel of pakistan want. Pakistan elected their leader but it can only be democracy if the U.S. likes it? and isrealis arent the only ones dieing. every move the pakistans have made was in retaliation. Peopel are trying to take over the holy land (and all the land they have). Now i think it is crap to say we will give isreall everything they want but you have to cater what we say even though you were attacked first. I mean, yeah they get their land back, but it was theirs in the first place oooo nice deal. and by saying they would have to get rid of arifat was a stupid stupid thing because he made the pakistan people nothing in the negotiations pretty much saying that you dont count. so what does arifat say...I am a man of the people and its what they want (were trying to spread democracy, right?) and what do they want. well even if they dont want arifat they want a voice, they dont want to be walked over by another country.

I just read on CNN that Sharon will NOT be tried in a Belgium for war crimes he supposedly committed in 1982. It's believed that his forces killed over 800 Palestinians at refugee camps. The court said it was inadmissable because Sharon doesn't live in Belgium, so they can't try him there.

So, is it just me, or is it entirely possible that Bush had a hand in this ruling? I think both Israel and Palestine are wrong, but I can totally understand why the terrorist attacks are occurring. They are terrible and awful but if Sharon and his army can get away free after "allegedly" killing 800 at a refugee camp, YOU CAN BET THEY'RE GONNA BE MAD!!! I would be too. It in no way justifies the killings, but makes them a bit more understandable.

If you think I'm totally nuts than I would be more than happy to hear information from any of you. I don't think I'm totally informed on this but I'm getting there.

well marine 16, it seems its a waste of time answering u back because u have alot of things u dont know about. well first of all , think why people just blow themselves like that, i dont think its only because of the 72 (not the 42) virgins promised for martyrs. try to understand what these people have seen before....their children, parents killed cold blooded, women raped , babies shot in the head , houses buldozed , insult , hatred , racism ... do u want more!!, these suicide bombers are desperate and as u said they cant go for the zionist soldiers in turn they go for the zionist civilians EXACTLY like the zionist soldier killing civilians, but the only difference is that the suicide bomber dies too, but the soldier is still alive and dedicated to kill more and more.

and please do not talk about islam in that way and dont just talk rubbish throwing words about somthing ur ignorant about. the KURAN doesnt say to fight disbelievers in that sence, it says fight disbelievers who attack you and do not invade or attack unless they do (transliteration), and here we go israel occupying the holy land (for the 3 religions),invading and killing civilians even killing green plants....so the palestiniens have the right to defend themselves and fight back.
plus in jewish teachings the term GOYIM which means the non jews (muslims, christians.....) describing them as pigs ,and the jews themselves are the chosen right people, unfortunately they are not.

I see what is going here. The people who are bias, in the sense that they are from brother Arab nations, think Israel is wrong no matter what. They think Israel is wrong to fight for their exsitence. They think Israel if wrong for weeding out terrorism. They think Israel if wrong for reacting to the death of innocent civilians. They think Israel is wrong for trying to destroy the PLO who has the goal os eliminating the state of Israel. These bias people think Israel is wrong no matter what they do and will only be satisified when Israel is simply a memory. Isn't that right, Kahira?

As for Kahira's last post. Please take not of her speculation..."What I said was that they would probably stick to (either constantly or mostly)attacking military targets if they could,if only because it 'd be more effective.They probably can't,and that's why they turn to civilians;" Mind you that Kahira has no backing for this speculation what-so-ever. She ignores that fact that suicide bombers bomb clubs, markets and restaurants and have not yet fully attempted to attack military targets.

As for the laqst thing people want is suicide. Are you saying that these people do not want the forty virgins promised to them in the Kuran? Arfe you saying these people do not want to be martyrs? These bombers crave suicide and all that comes with it.

Also, Palestinians religion, Islam follows the Kuran. The Kuran states that 'the believers (for Islam) should fight the non believers (everyone who isn't Islamic)" It sounds to me that the Palestinians simply look for an excuse to weed our the non believers.

If Palestine had not began kiloling innocent civilians and Israel would have invaded them for no reason than one coud rightfully argue that Israel is wrong. But that simply is not that case because right now Israel is right no matter how you role the dice.

Noone said the suicide bombers only destroy military targets.There you go again"twisting my words" as you so often accuse me of doing.What I said was that they would probably stick to (either constantly or mostly)attacking military targets if they could,if only because it 'd be more effective.They probably can't,and that's why they turn to civilians;after all,if Israel attacks ambulances without bothering to check if they might have opposition or wounded people first,then I doubt suicide attacks on military targets is very practicable.

Everyone: I heard this on the radio a few weeks back:Egypt sent and sends medical supplies to the wounded Palestinians after Jenin,but apparently these don't reach the intended and are either retained by Israel until nearly their expiry dates,then returned to Egypt.It appears that Israel doesn't want support for the wounded Pals-they want them to BUY Israeli medicine and supplies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!thereby funding Israel's military and livelihood by the very people they injured.

Proud: I never said I was a supporter of Iraq ,certainly not of Saddam Hussein,so don't imply that I did.I'm not keeping up with Iraqui news so I don't know what they're doing;however I think if you're representing the US then you have to realise that whatever crimes Iraq commits or has committed,America has done worse,and its long history of war crimes is probably the reason they're refusing to cooperate with the international prosecution of war criminals,if it includes all people without discrimination.

Dr Strangelove :
Realise that the Japanese didn't lose land,they were defending their political system.They cannot be equated with Palestinians.

" Isreal was attacked outright when it was created in '48"
Er,and that's wrong?These people had been flooding in for years against the wishes of the natives,by force.So,no,The state of Israel did not attack the state of Palestine-there WAS NO Israel;when it was "created" it was on Palestinian land,i.e.stolen.And America attacked the Vietnamese for no reason other than they feared the spread of communism(as far as I know),but Israel is attacked because of direct and outright harm to the inhabitants and inheritors of the land.I s defending a people against oppression wrong?

"Then in 1967, it made pre-emptive attacks on it's neighbors, who just so happened to be massing for another invasion of the LEGAL state of Isreal."
Legal isn't the same thing as morally correct.If the UN allowed Israel to be "legal"it's because the English who had been occupying the land had already agreed with the Zionists to establish a state of Israel in the occupied land(apparently in return for monetary support the Zionists had given England );now the English were OCCUPIERS(and hardly benign ones)so the land was not theirs to give in the moral sense.If it was made okay in the legal sense,that's because the UN is represented mainly and most strongly by countries who accepted occupation(as well as the oppression of natives),eg.England and France.Also THAT state of Israel was supposed to be a small area of land,nowhere near the size of Israel now.There is much in Israel that is not even UN-approved,and Sharon's building more and more illegal settlements and NOONE's stopping him now,and the UN did not force them to stop beforehand.

" Why is it only Isreal's duty to help the remaining refugee's when virtually all the countries in the region where deeply involved in thier displacement?"
Well that's a low blow.First of all,noone said we approve of the way Arab nations are handling the situation at all.Second of all,Israel's the one that took over their land and property;the land the Palestinians fled out of fear is now used by Israelis,as well as other Palestinian areas,not to mention the fact that Israel's trying to oppress Palestinians by various ways-one is the fact that they destroyed the Palestinian wealth of olive trees for Israeli use(using various unfounded and flimsy excuses).The Arabs you say are equally responsible for the Palestinian situation were trying to fight for those people,to restore their land and rights;they did not rob them,if they didn't do everything they can to make it easier on the refugees.But thatt's not entirely fair:Gulf countries have tried to help the Palestinians;in the UAE for eg.they're allowed free education and refuge.The rest of the Arab countries are already extremely poor.Perhaps one reason they didn't do more is because they can't afford to.Israel can and is the reason they're afraid to live in their own land anymore.

How can you be certain it's "bunk"?Se how many Zionist senators you have.The rich Zionists and they're money are the reason England got us into this whole mess.They bought England's support at the time;why is is so farfetched to say they might or are probably doing something similar to ensure America's blind support for Israel?

As I recall,America has done plenty of crimes itself.Is it okay for them to be portrayed as savages for their response to being treated as ones,but not okay for anti-Americanism or any 'evil' portrayals of America(after all we're either with you or against you)because of all its oppression,just because they use the really big bombs(hello,nukes) along with fighter planes and they're powerful ,so any opposition is 'wrong'?After all,no civilians were killed in the attack on Afghanistan to "defend themselves from terrorists",oh no,but when young Palestinians fight for what they have lost and continue to lose,and kill civilians and themselves(civilians who may not be guilty of killing,but are still living and getting livelihood off stolen land)-well!!!!!They must be savages!How dare they?

"First off, our efforts in this war have not yet been directed at the Palestinians. Secondly, another group people, that came from some other groups of "poor, mistreated people" killed nearly 3000 INNOCENT CIVILIANS and destroyed 20 Billion dollars worth of non-military property. "
Your efforts in this war support Israel,and that is enough and plenty of effort against the Palestinians.And if you're referring to 9/11 and Bin Ladin,just remember that the Taliban got their power from the US trying to fight Russia,and the ppor mistreated civilians suffered under the Taliban that America empowered,and that Ameica had no problems with killing those civilians and their homes once more for their own purposes,once their allies became enemies.Also,how many innocent Plaestinians died ?I'm sure you don't even know!

"has been no signifigant non-violent (read: in the footsteps of Ghandi or MLK Jr.) movment for the creation of a Palestinian state."
Er,I believe Ghandi ran the country,that's how he could use non-violent measures to create Pakistan.Sharon on the other hand is nothing if not violent,and he'[s being blindly supported by the US(without which even the UN cannot establish a Palestinian state);and the cares of the Pals are certainly the least of his concerns,so they're sure not going to appeal to him!Oh,in case you didn't know,he's a war criminal who was supposed to be tried in Belgium for the Subra asn Shatila massacres ,but NOONE tried him and he was elected prime minister.If you want to see how well Pals refugees fare under Israel,particularly Sharon,look up Sabra and Shatila please.Not to mention Jenin.

Againstwar: I cannot devote my full attention to this post, but I'll touch on a few points.

quote:

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No one ever claimed that suicide was great!!!! Suicide is the last thing a man turns to when he's out of hope!!!!!!!!!!!! This is how desperate those ppl are, can't you see???????

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Suicide is also a tactic used by fanatical armies on the battlefeild, ie. Japanese, Veitnamese.

quote:

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Israel invades the palestinian land

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But first, Isreal was attacked outright when it was created in '48. Then in 1967, it made pre-emptive attacks on it's neighbors, who just so happened to be massing for another invasion of the LEGAL state of Isreal. In both cases, thousands if not millions of Palestinians fled Isreal to arab nations (as instructed by said nations), where there are now extensive refugee camps. These camps have not been improved by ANY country, including the Arab states many are located in. The camps under Isreali control (and not the PLO's) have been dispirsed by integrating the population. However, the camps on the arab side have been kept in quagmire, possibly to maintain the hatred for Isreal, combined with some propaganda. The question is: Why is it only Isreal's duty to help the remaining refugee's when virtually all the countries in the region where deeply involved in thier displacement?

quote:

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Wondering how Israel bought America's support? Allow me to answer... do you know the zionist star? it looks just like the jewish one... except that it's devided in 2 triangles one is blue, the other red... one of them symbolising that the occident is for America, the other that the orient is for Israel. THIS being the very symbol of zionism.

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Aside from this stinking of the "zoinest consiracy" bunk, I don't see how this proves that Isreal bought America's support, by any stretch of the mind.

quote:

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NOW, the Palestinian haven't only lost their land, their families, their ppl & their homes, they have also lost their reputation, are treated like savages through the medias

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This is what happens after you attack civilian targets with suicide bombers.

quote:

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America with it's "hero" attitude pretends to be fighting against terror, & it's stupid population can't even spot the differnece between what's wrong & what's right. "WAR AGAINST TERROR" WOOOOOOW! America is going to save the world from the poorest most mistreated ppl in the world! How heroic!!!
Just one question, doesn't your world seem too perfect to be true???

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First off, our efforts in this war have not yet been directed at the Palestinians. Secondly, another group people, that came from some other groups of "poor, mistreated people" killed nearly 3000 INNOCENT CIVILIANS and destroyed 20 Billion dollars worth of non-military property.
And as for the question at the end, absolutley not. I've simply got a different logic than you.

quote:

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(If I were you, I would have noticed that it was fake...)

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Good, you've made your decision even though you don't fully understand our postitions. A fine example of predjudice and evidence of bias.

And finally, one last question to you:

You have been a vehement proponent of peaceful resolution to conflicts on these boards, but yet you see the Palestianian suicide attacks as justified, when there has been no signifigant non-violent (read: in the footsteps of Ghandi or MLK Jr.) movment for the creation of a Palestinian state. Please explain this contratiction.

No one ever claimed that suicide was great!!!! Suicide is the last thing a man turns to when he's out of hope!!!!!!!!!!!! This is how desperate those ppl are, can't you see???????


LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE:
Israel invades the palestinian land, kills & mistreats it's inhabitants, pretends to be searching for co-existance while in reality it's aiming for enlarging its land to fit all the world's jewish population.(one of the basis of this country)
Shows desreguard to the palestinian cause, accuses them of attacking "inhumanly" the Israel civilians (living on the Palestinian land)!!!
Claims this land is theirs, throwing a huge Palestinian population out, leaving them homeless, jobless, living in camps...
Nowadays most of those ppl's children have been living like animals, with no educational rights, & not even a memory of a decent home]...& Israel reffuses to assume its responsibility towards them.

That's not all... Israel with the support of the richest jews "buys" the most important countries support, making them shut-up abt this great crime against humanity, these countries pretending to be defending the right cause brainwash all the ppl that they can reach through their media.
Wondering how Israel bought America's support? Allow me to answer... do you know the zionist star? it looks just like the jewish one... except that it's devided in 2 triangles one is blue, the other red... one of them symbolising that the occident is for America, the other that the orient is for Israel. THIS being the very symbol of zionism.

NOW, the Palestinian haven't only lost their land, their families, their ppl & their homes, they have also lost their reputation, are treated like savages through the medias (& by ppl like you), are living in camps (with no reason to live), no rights to stand up against Israel, & are blamed whenever they try to fight to get their land back.
Meanwhile the small Palestinian population still living in Israel suffers from racism, are considered like an inferior race & are mistreated by the gouvernment.
[While Israelis scream in horror when someone dares to sacrifice his life to tell the world that his ppl is still suffering!!!]

THIS IS WHAT AMERICA IS PAYING ISRAEL FOR, TO ERRASE THIS DYING POPULATION'S LAST SCREAM FOR JUSTICE!! WHY? BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU, LIVING PEACEFULLY AT HOME CAN'T STAND TO HEAR ABOUT A PEOPLE'S SUFFERING.
& America with it's "hero" attitude pretends to be fighting against terror, & it's stupid population can't even spot the differnece between what's wrong & what's right. "WAR AGAINST TERROR" WOOOOOOW! America is going to save the world from the poorest most mistreated ppl in the world! How heroic!!!
Just one question, doesn't your world seem too perfect to be true??? (If I were you, I would have noticed that it was fake...)

proud, since you are so concerned abt Iraq's women & children, why don't u blame America for what they're doin to them, instead of blaming this country who's been like many others destroyed BECAUSE of America. You can't imagine all the suffering these ppl have endured... & which, till now, ain't over...
If the only problem this country had was its gouvernment then with a little outside help it would have been solved, & if America was really aiming to get rid of the gouvernment I believe their weapons are quite accurate & would have succeeded a long time ago.

Kahira- you do not seemed concerned when Iraq uses women and children as human shields, but then again Iraq sponsors the terrorist group whom choose to call themselves Palestinians. But also then again Iraq gives the families of suicide bombers 25 thousand dollars. They probably removed the anti-Israel supporters in fear that they were all going to blow themselves up as the others did. Why if suicide is so great do the leaders not give themselves up to the holy cause as well? Must not be so great then, maybe they just have control over their peons to do the attacks for them. The palestinian suicide attacks surely only kill military targets right? Those cafes and shops and bus stops are surely full of military personnel are they not? Oh no! No they are full of civilians, the same thing you are using as your arguments.

Jews arent the only ones living in Israel. Its the holy land for Christians, Muslims, Jews, and other religions! The population isn't strictly Jews

first of all i said jews owning broadcasts not working in broadcasting channels. secondly im not dissing jews; im annoyed because what i see in such news is not the whole story , very different to what i see in for example arabic channels (real time pictures) and very biased towards israel , they are not giving the public the right thing and in turn what these broadcasts show, increases the people hatred to arabs and muslims seeing them as ('terrorists').

this issue my friend have nothing to do with christians, ISRAEL------------- JEWS ,i think ur smart enough to know that. and in fact palestinians that are struggling in Israel-Palestine are Christians and Muslims.