Proudconservative:
"The arabs did flee in fear when they heard of the attacking Israelis as Marine said"
So the Israelis WERE attacking;if the Palestinians fled in "fear" then they were obviously under threat;noone is afraid of being a "minority" unless that minority is oppressed,so it's not a matter of free will.I repeat that I have lived among Palestinians and they would not have to make up any stories to gain Arab sympathy because we recognise that they were kicked out of their land.And that story againstwar posted is probably true not made up-of course you wouldn't hear about it in your media because they seem to gather more information from Israeli sources(that's why I say it's pro-Israeli;Aimee,I'm with you;I'd like to know how they think their media is pro-Palestinian),than from Arab ones;the Arab media is on top of that and I'm glad you realise that Egypt has a peace treaty with Israel;that supports my statement that our media is government-controlled and the government doesn't want trouble from the already angry people,so any news regarding this particular issue is factual,and if your media were pro-palestinian as you claim,then it should at least be held at the same level with ours;in other words,our news is as factual as your if not more so.
If the house was destroyed there may still be a laptop hidden somewhere,with which to send the e-mail.More on Jenin later.
The UK offered part of Palestine to the Zionists in (partly) payment for their help against the Ottoman Turks.The UN is merely a collection of countries trying to keep down killing and their "human rights "are only partial.Suffice to say that when a counrty(England) is occupying it had no right to the land in the first place and thus does not have the right to "give it away".It's like selling stolen goods.The UN's reigns are held by countries that didn't mind occupying others(Againstwar showed how the British treatd their "occupees")and probably had Zionist influence,as well as having sympathy for Jewish refugees.That doesn't give them the right to make more refugees and they are made up of humans who are easily capable of folly;there's no guarantee to them doing the right thing(and they didn't)they merely excercise a certain influence depending on what the members think(and those members were too remote-THEY didn't have their lands taken,threatened,like the people in the Middle-East).
Did any of you think,if it had been true that the Zionists in the MAKING of Israel had no intention of expanding their state further than the area(that was less than occupied Palestine now),then how would that have worked.Palestine's a small country,take an even smaller part of it,did anyone think how the "Jews form all around the world " would even fit into it without going into surrounding lands?And that's if the Palestinians hadn't been there to begin with(assuming the Israelis had any intention of coexisting);this supports all the veidence you insist on denying,that they were forced out of the land and the ones that fled with nowhere to go had no alternative;this was the Zionist intention:to get rid of them by death or displacement because a)there's no space for Jews alone,let alone Palestinians too and b)it would ruin their plans of a Jewish country with the Jewish culture unless the Palestinians were either gone or a tiny powerless minority-they'd have to replace the whole Arab mind-set!!Is that not racist?
You can't compare this with Sept.11because these bombers are offering the last desperate defense of the hopeless towards getting some rights and dignity back,by striking at their oppressors and by finally attracting world-wide attention(Bush had not been trying to do anything about relations is Israel/Palestine until the escalating violenxce forced him to;the Israeli would never give Palestinians anything freely and noone was helping Palestine.And no,I don't agree with the US retaliating against the Afghans before being certain it was Bin Ladin by wiping out so many civilian cities just in case there were any terrorists,therefore devastating a country already devastated by war that AMERICA waged with Russia in their land,;but they were so angry and wanted to excercise power so they just wiped out Afghanistan,civilian cities,everything on the suspicion that there might be terrorists hiding thereso don't get self-righteous about this..What makes it right for the US to kill as many civilians as possible in case there's a few terrorists among them,but not for Palestinians to hurt the very people ALL of which have hurt them,robbed them,and the military of which has devastated them. No,I don't like the idea of targeting civilians,but I assume that must be because they can't get to military targets and the Israeli military has always given less concern for Palestinian civilians.They can't be judged the same as ordinary people because their condition is entirely different.n civilians much worse.You can't have different standards for both,although I think that when you have a strong organised army you should be more careful and put more consideration into the civilians'demise.
MARINE:
If you're going to say "divine right" you're bringing religion into it,which you accused us of doing.As for history,I don't think the Bible is regarded by non-Christians as historically accurate(even some Chritians on Youthnoise kept saying it's not entirely accurate),but if it were ,the Jews would still not have had the land for centuries as a Jewish country and so have no claim to it,except for those that were Palestinian and a part of that culture shared by All Palestinians of different religions,for centuries now.Your religious beliefs are contradictory,incidentally;surely the coming of Jesus would no longer make Jews "chosen;didn't they deny Jesus and wasn't the crucifiction their fault?
Before Israel was a state,the Jews from all over arrived secretly ,in camps,and were highly trained beforehand.I'm not sure if there was no bllodshed then,but if so,it's because of the underhandedness of their arrival,rather like your "illegal aliens",no?
Palestinans are hardly heard,rather than manipulating news,unlike the powerful Zionists.If you're suggesting the Palestinian admitted they lied on claims of Israeli devastations you're grieviously mistaken,they did no such thing and I'd like to know what source gave you that idea.All your "undisputable opiniuons are mistaken;either entirely or they don't show the whole picture.I won't reply to them individually,but I have proof.
More quotes from the Times:
" ..the central obstacle to engagamet in the region has been Bush's senior foreign-policy advisorsled by Cheney and Rumsfeld.They are stuanchly pro-Israel and have shown little regard for the peace process in the past.Concentrated at the Pentagon but salted all around the White House,these hard-liners have regular access to Bush." "Itis Sharon who iniatially paid no attention to the president's call that Israel withdraw 'without delay'form the occupied territories..
The Arabs wanted the land for the people it was taken fromnot themselves;this is not invasion,it's helping a friend fight(severe) oppression.More on Arab-Israeli history soon,when I have sufficient details.
The Palestinian military is not to be compared to the US_supplied Israeli military;furthermore,any Palestinian militaryu would be considered "terrorism" because Israel doesn't want to grant them the right to one(not surprising considering their whole poicy is based on force-take the land by force with Englands 's help,keep them suppressed by force) and it's Israel that's in control,so it's not like they'l be fair or even bother giving Palestinians ANY rights at all if they hadn't been offering up resistance to make thins difficult and catch the international eye.
Sicide bombings:(On their perspective)"Killing Israelis,goes this arguement is an act of national self-defence,since the Israelis occupy Palestian territory,deny the Palestinians their national rights and in enforcing their rule,frequently kill Palestinan civilians..'If a man dressed as a civilian carried a gun and took my house,my land and my right,how can I say that he is a civilian and has nothing to do with it?' Presumably the Palestinians would be happy to fight the Israelis conventionally,army against army,but they have no real military.They have no tanks ,no airforce,no artillery-just a bunch of militias armed with machine guns and if you count Hamas's illicit arsenal,some mortars and rockets.Israel,on the other hand,has one of the most powerfuland modern militaries in the world.The asymmetry produced a lopsided body count....Samir Rantissi, a coordinator of the Israeli-Palestinian Peace Coalition,condemns attacks on civilians but beleves they result from escalating frustration.'For 35 years,Palestinians have tried every,every,every, means to deal with this intolerable occupation,'he says.'We tried to coexist with it.It didn't work.We tried demonstrating against it.It didn't work.We tried secret negotiating channels that led to Oslo and assumed it would lead to a Palestinian state.It didn't work.' "-Times magazine.
As for Israel wanting peace:"..the scale of the operation suggests Sharon's goals are much broader than that(fighting'terrorism').Israeli forces have ransacked and destroyed the Palestinian Statistics Bureau,the Education Ministry and other public buildings.They have destroyed the compounds of Arafat and his security chief,Jibril Rajoub,one of the most moderate Palestinians ariund. Sharon,in other words is obliterating the Palestinian Authority.This makes little sense if you assume his goal is deterring terrorism.After all,chaos and destruction could easily produce more terrorism,not less-as Sharon's last military operation,the invasion of Lebanon ,demonstrated.But Sharon's real aim is to cripple the PA,and thus crush the instrument of collective Palestinian nationalism.Even if there remained some rump entity called a Palestinian state,it would be irrelevent since Israel would stay firmnly lodgd in the West Bank and Gaza. ..Sharon is the first major Israeli polititian to have suggested that there never need be any Palestinian state...he planned the building of dozens of Jewish settlements in far-flung places of the territories,designed to make Israeli withdrawal from these territories impossible.Last January,when asked in an interview about dismantling settlements as part of any peace-plan,he refused,saying bluntly:'All the settlements will remain where they are,period.'....Since his election as prime minister,34 new settlements have been built,which violate not only the Oslo accords but also Sharon's own agreement with his coalition goverment."-Times
If you are capable of realising it,most of your "undisputable" butreally stubbornly-blind "proofs" have been disproved,about the Palestinians being the ones who prevent any peace etc...
May I also mention that Sharon refuses to meet with Arafat or even be in the same room calling him a liar and that he doesn't want peace.Well,words from the war-criminal's mouth,and who is it who never had any plans for peace?
And Marine:"Our media, unlike yours, is PRO-PALESTINE. I live here, you don't. I am qualified to say that. If you think our media is pro-Israel than you have fallen victim to you countries propoganda."
So YOUR media is pro-Palestine,but ours isn't?Why then,if ours isn't pro-Palestinian but reports horrible injustices upon them,then there must be more devastations on them than we know of and the crimes we know the Israelis commited must be just the tip of the ice-berg!That's if our media is not -pro-palestinian but pro-israeli;or,of course,the alternative is that our media states it'like it is',which is the 'trueth'(as you consistently misspell) of the situation.So you our source,by your standards,MUST be accurate and you cannot call them 'bias'without contradicting yourself.Also,we have been telling you repeatedly that we have access to your media.I have the CNN turned on right now.The media doesn't brainwash us,it's no propanganda ploy(we're not communists);however,because there is censorship over certain aspects,the goverment exerts some control;and what the goverment does not want is more angry protestors to tear gas,so they make sure the news is factual;they would not allow made up stories to 'gain sympathy for Palestinians'as it'd make for more trouble within the country,so we don't hear any made up stories.But nor will they hide informations or give half-truths to protect Israeli image.
The very fact that the UN allows Israel to illegaly exist is a breach f human rights and that is how they support Israel even if they don't support their crimes.
Proudcon:
The very fact that you use that exact same sentence(raped pregnany women,killed children) repeatedly suggests you know nothing of the situation;it suggests that Palestinians confessed to making up stories,which they did not and if you believe in your words state your source,secondly I have seen countless pictures of dead children,even babies(one was shot very accurately in the chest) and others that survived with monstrous scars and little medical care (oh,I'm sorry,I forgot,they don'[t have the right to the same medical care Israelis get,being less than human and all)and now will never function as normal again(seriously,some of the picture of the SURVIVORS were worse than any horror movie I ever watched).
Lebanon's not 70% Muslim;both religions are more or less proportionate,and there are several sects of each coexisting.America got its freedom from the British too.So do you belong there?(of course,it's the Natives that lay prior claim,but I'm sure you got the land from them in all fairness and with kindness and justice mercy;after all,they sold someplace(Mississipi?) for trinkets,which is a fair price,I'm sure,and they had full FREEDOM ,hah!I'm sure they spend Thanksgiving giving thanks for being massacred).
Mohamed Mosad: yes,I believe that the 2 articles I copied(the soldier and the rabbi) a couple of days ago was from a pro-peace Jewish site,and God bless the ones that realise how much harm has come out of this occupation.As I recal,the previous soldier confessed to random acts of cruelty by Israeli soldiers as well as the Palkestinians devastated;the rabbi,severly denounced Sharon.
Yes,Peace Now is an usual movement says that there are Jews out there that care(God bless)and yes,the suicide bomber hardly made an intelligent choice if s/he decided to bomb an area where people were donating blood;as for Palestinians donating blood,I'd hardly be surprised if they choose not to considering how little medical attention they're allowed;Peace Now are unfortunately a minority.
The media Mosad speaks of is not the news,this reflects the opinions of the people,which rather go along the line of Israelis(not born but) will be raised Zionist(atmosphere),which they generally are(which some exceptions).
Peace largely depends on Sharon,who wants none of it.If peace did happen it would be a "peace treaty" not actual "peace" because it would merely be a compromise on the weaker side,that no rights will be restored,what you suffered you won't be compensated for but it'll be better than before as long as you don't mind compromising your dignity and still being under Israel."The cabinet Eitam says:'I would offer the Palestinians a very broad and progressive autonomy..They could enjoy everything that Israeli citizens enjoy except3 things:they will not be able to control their external borders,they will not have any armed organisations and they will not be allowed to vote.'The reporter:'Some people would call that apartheid.' " -Newsweek Exactly.There can be no peace without justice.
Againstwar:
You're welcome!!!And you're right.Lebanon can't fit more refugees (and it's not its duty to give them Lebanese nationality,which the Israelis would love"oh,but they have other countries now,what do they want with us?").Besides,the 3 mill Lebanese are distributed all over small Lebanon(lucky there's no desert like in Egypt)and there are more than twice that number in lebanese emigrated all over the world!!!!Lebanon couldn't even hold all the Lebanese!And everyone,I assure you that Lebanon isn't too fond of war,they're too busy trying to pick the pieces and heal(I remember my first impression of Beirut as a child:bullet-embedded buildings everywhere!Now they're really starting to rebuild and it's becoming beautiful like it used to be;10 years ago my family barely had phone lines,now they're running around with mobiles;and yeah,the economy's not good,1000 liras barely buy candy!)
Proud: All the Arab countries were emperiled with the creation of Israel,and all have been affcted by the Palestinian refugees(Lebanon would've been attacked by Israel just for helping refugees that dfon't want to take things lying down whether or not they had joined in the first wars).The Zionists never had any intention of not expanding the land(that's why they didn't state the borders clearly) and all those Jews could not have arrived without displacing or killing Palestinians(both for land,power and to keep a "Jewish nature)
,and even if they're occupation had been morally correct,the much increased population would at the very least be a stress on the resources and the Palestinian refugees would've strained the resources of the overpopulated or crowded arab lands and so would've harmed us even if they'd had no plans to war with us,take the land fromNile to Euphrates,even if this hadn't been an inhumanly sadistic crime against Palestinians>If the US had any right to war to prevent the spread f communism to America,then the Arabs likewise had a right to fight this threat(that,incidentally,is smack dab amongst us,not across an ocean).
Iraq's attempt nevertheless managd to raise oil prices highly.
If they're crying to the UN it's because they're their last hope.Whatever we say you will deny because you don't want to believe.We don't make up stories.And Puppy:it says nowhere that the electricity was destroyed,besides,he used batteries.I'm sure this story is true,I'll write more on the Jenin devastation.
BushS:Who said anything about Egypt shelling Israel?Did you just make that up?I'd like to know if you have a source that influenced this statement or if you just invented it.
Againstwar: it is true.I heard about Israel siccing spies on America they're pretty infamous for their spies,hmm?)but I forgot to mention it.Even the marines were complaining about the trouble the Israelis were causing them ,but America did nothing about it(I read this in a looong American report /article on the net).This goes to show that there must be remarkably powerful Zionist influences on American policy,people in high places(like Cheney and Rumsfeld) otherwise the US would never take it.
BushS and marine:Your government can do whatever it wants,they don't have to do it directly(think Watergate),and at least we state many of our sources,I've quoted much from Time,or is that not good enough for you?What do you want ,a personal interview with Sharon and Arafat?(oh,but you won't believe the latter even if a lie-detector test proves him right,hmm?)You haven't bothered to state any sources on your "undisputable proofs"-probably as you have none;and yes,do us all a favor and don't repeat them,they're unfounded,pointless and irritating when you spend time trying to did deep to get blind convictions from the other side.Oh,and what about the articles I copied?A confession from an Israeli,a rebuke from a rabbi.Can't be respected huh?
And yes,bomarding you with facts wwhich you refuse to see,especially marine,so even your media is Pro-palestinian(you say)-who CAN you believe?
WHAT about JENIN:
I'm not going to give the whole story as I'm sure you can derive some from the news.The following are quotes from Newsweek on the devastations that happened to the Palestinians in Jenin:"(after Israelis had already invaded the refugee camp and the fight was already under way..)The suicide attack(aimed at a unit of reservists entering the camp)brought a brutal Israeli response.Just past midnight on April 10,Hassan Al-Ahmad watched from his windows one mile across tomato and wheat fields from the refugee camp as four Apache helicopters swooped low over his neighborhood.Hovering over the rooftops,the choppers fired 20 missiles into the camp in 15 minutes and obliterated many homes.Then the Apaches moved in closer,Al-Ahmad says,shooting hundreds of 800mm rounds from their cannons at gunmen in the alleys.Over the next days,Israeli forces broke through narrow alleyways with bulldozers ,flattening blocks of houses and sometimes burying their inhabitants alive,according to witnesses.Some residents were used as human shields,witnesses say,forced to open doors to suspected militants' homes before Israeli troops stormed inside....They left behind a landscape of devastation and an unknown number of casualties."Children are looking for their parents among the ruins,"one witness reported."there ar entire families who can't find their homes.' As of last week,the destruction remained barely visible to the outside world.On Friday morning a small group of reporters managed to enter the center of Jenin city by following a circuitious route along dirt tracks through vegetable fields...The tight military cordon around Jenin camp ,however,made it impossible to substantiate or refute claims of atrocities committed there by Israel...some eyewitnesses did provide accounts of atrocities that human rights organisations would like to investigate,as soon as Israel provides access to the camp.
Ahmed Assad,for instance,told Newsweek that I sraeli troops entered his house on Jenin's main street at 5:30 pm on Saturday ,April 6.They searched both floors and then ordered Assad,75,to call his neighbors into the street.The neighbors placed 13 women and children into one room,then brought outside 3 men-2 men from the Shalabi family and their aged father-and told them to remove their shirts in a routine check for suicide bombs. One of the brothers wore a Johnson and Johnson elastic back brace around his waist.Assad claims that the officer in charge who went by the nickname Gabi,apparently thought it was a suicide belt."Gabi screamed,'Look,look,'and told two of his soldiers,'Kill him,'"says Assad,who speaks some Hebrew."They shot all three men with bursts from their M-16s from 2 meters away.The two younger men were killed;the third,60-year-old Fateh Saleh Shalabi,survivd and is reportedly still in the camp.An Israeli military spokeswoman calls the allegation a lie."This is against all basic rules and moralsthat the IDF has,"she says."IDF soldiers have orders not to harm civilians ,to fire only on gunmen who put soldiers' lives at risk."
Though the resistance in Jenin was over by the weekend,the International Committee of the Red Cross was still being barred from entering the camp to make a survey of the dead.Red Cross workers say they've even been prevented by the Army from rescuing two women trapped in the bulldozed ruins of their home.....the long delay(of Israel) in opening the camp has cemented the impression that Israel has something to hide."-Newsweek
There you have it .The spokeswoman says it's not true and soldiers are only allowed to shot gunmen,not harm civilians;yet they bulldozed houses without giving any thought to the civilians they're supposed to 'protect' and kept the Red Cross for saving two women they could see under bulldozed remains.This negates everythinh the spokeswoman says,if it's a rule for the IDF it's not being applied.And why won't they open the camp?Why wouldn't they let the Red Cross save two civilian lives if they didn't have anything to hide?Could it be because they know the world ill be outrage d if they learned what really goes on?Why did they shoot the 2 men that didn't have the plastic brace?
The deal:the Army didn't want anyone assessing the massacres in the camp;they kept it closed because they were getting rid of the bodies.A fruit truck kept going in and out of camp.To feed ghosts or remove their corpses from public eye?Masses of corpses have already been disposed of,some straight down the sewers.THAT's why the RC couldn't enter;that's why noone can till it's all neat an clean as possible.
For the last 2 posts:Marine,you won't be missed;you're not adding anything to the post and being the least pro-Israeli even attempting to read up on the situation alittle,the immaturity you complain of is largely due to you.I've replied to much of your unfounded arguements above;if you can't see that nor reply to anything I have said nordispute why you and BushS can't"respect" the quotes we give when they're at least as legitimate as anyone elses(if you're all so certain that Palestinians lie for support,then you must be willing to accept that Israel does the same,especially in light of the report of Jenin above);if you only believe things that you want (even though these sources are non-Arab)then there's no point in discussing anything further with you.BushS:the very statement condemns Palestinians without any reference to their conditions,or their history and could be easily neutrlasised with the similar sentense:Why shouldn't the Palestinians kill all the monsters that stole their land,massacred them,are led by a war-criminal,and oppressed them in every way?
It's not cowardly to use what means you can to resist when the opposing force is far more powerful than you,more brutal(see Jenin above and the previous article on the Israeli soldier's confession)and has the support of the most powerful country while you have next to no support in comparison.If it is their lack of power that makes them coward then you're merely into power-play and please don't bring morals into this at all(unless they are held for both sides fairly).
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