Not to mention the fact that the suggestion about parents knowing about a firearm is an invasion of privacy and a valueable tool for burglars to determine whether a house is a harder target.
Marine-it's clear that we're getting nowhere with this-neither of us is willing to relent and admit that A)the other one is right or B)There is a middle ground
Once again, I will lay down my argument against registration of firearms. 1)
quote:Identification of a fired bullet by class (calibre type of casing) is not too difficult, if the bullet is still in reasonably good shape.
As I said, a fragmented piece of lead will lend little help. This idea, while good, is nontheless flawed and will not be effective. Confiscation is possible. It has happened before, it will happen again, as will dictatorships and tyranny. The fact that the US constitution gives the right to own firearms is not failsafe against left wing agendas. Over the years, important documents have been differed-ex, lighter on the gays in Christianity. The constitution is not invincible. And registration just makes it easier for the government to take away your guns. Registration removing firearms from people after they have comitted crimes will only be effective in the short term. As Marine himself put,
quote:If we allowed felons, who hate our government and legal system and have spent 10 years building their rage, they will more than likley resort to using that gun.
Thus, when given criminal gets out of jail he'll mosey off to the black market and grab himself a gun. Simple.
quote:2 - Helps police pin point ownership of guns in trials.
3 - Helps the government take away guns from crazies and felons.
4 - Helps the government prevent crazies and felons from buying guns.
5 - Assists parents in knowing if the house their children is playing at has a gun.
2)If this ever works, which is highly unlikely. 3)See last 4)The Black Market has been a neglected factor here. 5)This is the only useful factor I can deduce, if parents do not feel that their child is responsible enough to not crap around with firearms.
quote:. Please provide me with FACTS, not assumptions, as to why gun registration is a bad thing.
I have given facts-that Nazi Germany happened is a fact, that a bullet after going through a human and hitting a steel building and being fragmented is a fact, that the black market is an open source of weapons is a fact.
Study after study PROVES that guns are used from more often for protection than to kill. One, by Dr. Gary Kleck, a criminological researcher with Florida State Univ. reports that there are 2.5 million defensive uses annually. Even the U.S. Department of Justice claims about 1.4 million defensive uses, as did a study by two researchers working for the gun control lobby, Philip J. Cook & Jens Ludwig, found about the same. Some other research or analyses suggest even the 2.5 mil figure is too low, such as an analysis of the above studies by St. Louis University. Do a Yahoo search; you'll find this. The bottom line is: if guns made the world less safe, why does every police officer carry one? For that matter, if guns were more likely to kill than to save lives, with 250 million guns in this country, why isn't everybody dead?
"And anyhow, will a misshapen hunk of lead that may be fragmented really leave a lot of clues?" You moron, read the ballistics report and you will see.
Why wouldn't confiscation happen in America? because our constitution says we can have guns. Where does it say this in you socialists constitution? Show me where it says this in the European constitution.
"Yeas, it may take guns away from felons and crazies......after they've comitted the crime." I have alrleady said, you can not prevent a crime, only deter it. Registration deters it from happening a second time.
"The poulation difference of several million would maybe have an effect on this?" You must be comp-letley un aware that Germany is much more populated than America, proportionitaly. But, even if we break it down to an equal pop. we still have more. Besides, one country out of the many with gun control. Several from a country with no control. Huh, funny how it works out. A whole continent has one shooting, we have 20.
"Apparently, you're living under a rock. There is a debate going on over whether or not the 2'nd Amendment applys today" I see no ratification in the constituion, do you?
"If America jumps off the proverbial bridge, the rest of the world should too?" The world followed us on our war in the Persian Gulf and our War on Terrorism, so the answer to your question is yes.
"I suppose the very happening of Nazi Germany" Do you acctually think the ENTIRE world is ruled by Nazi Germany or are you just plain stupid?
"only one, since he says the same thing over and over again throughout the succession of respondings" WOuld this one thing be...it leads to confiscation, just like Nazi Germany and Germany? No, wait a minute, that is your only arguement. You my friend are a broken record. I have respond to this arguement several times from many angels and all of them have shot it down. The only part of my 5 point arguement you have even tried to negotiate is that it take guns away after crimes. Respond to my entire arguement or shut up.
Facts... Pro Gun Registration...
1 - Helps make things easier on police officers when searching for a shooter.
2 - Helps police pin point ownership of guns in trials.
3 - Helps the government take away guns from crazies and felons.
4 - Helps the government prevent crazies and felons from buying guns.
5 - Assists parents in knowing if the house their children is playing at has a gun.
The facts I have given are undisputable, Pie. All you have provided me with is it MAY lead to confiscation. I have the facts, you have assupmtions. Please provide me with FACTS, not assumptions, as to why gun registration is a bad thing.
quote:Registration might lead to confisation in Europe and Canada, but not in America. Your arguement that registration leads to confiscation does not hold true in America because you have no proof.
Why wouldn't it happen in America? What makes the US so special? I have no proof that it willhappen in the US. I can't, and you know it which is why you resort to this tactic when you know your arguments are futile. I have no proof that it willhappen in Cnada and Eurpoe, but it may, and the price of freedom is eternal vigalence(sp?).
quote:It is obvious you do not understand how it will make society safer by taking firearm away from felons and carzies.
Yeas, it may take guns away from felons and crazies......after they've comitted the crime.
quote:I am at a loss of words because I never knew anyone was that stupid.
It's nice to be number one.
quote:I'm sorry, I can not explain it any better.
You've explained it well enough for anyone. Problem is, it makes so little sense, no bodys gonna fall for it.
quote:And fool, not every person who is a felon or crazy is born that way.
Did I say this? PLease refresh my memory.
quote:You obvious don't read everything I write. Criminals do not need to leave a gun, simply a bullet shot from the gun. Did you completley skip over the ballistics info I posted for you?
No I didn't read the ballistics info, I trust that you took it from a reliable source and I have no need to understand how it works at the present.And anyhow, will a misshapen hunk of lead that may be fragmented really leave a lot of clues?
quote:You say registration led to confiscation in Canada and Europe
PLease don't put words in my mouth.
quote:As for the German school shootings, how many have they had and how many have we had?
The poulation difference of several million would maybe have an effect on this?
quote:Perhaps your socialisits should take a lesson in economics from us.
Considering our current state, I wouldn't object to this.
quote:If your government does not use ballistics reports to find and convict crimanals than you have a justice department as primitive as the Csech Republic.
Of course the government doesn't...the police do.
quote:What happens in England and Germany is completley irrelevant to what happens here.
Which is exactly why you said....
quote:Moron, Canada and Europe have complete gun control. And yet we still don't have it.
Get a new argument please-you're boring me.
quote:"Your theory is akin to saying that because Japan was the last enemy country left standing in WWII, it would never surrender because it's held out longer." - This is the most foolish speculation I have ever heard in my life. Your theory is akin to saying Japan should have surrendered after Berlin fell so they wouldn't fall off the ban wagon.
They should've-woulda saved them a lotta nuking.
quote:You have proven no point.
You're certainly one to talk.
quote:You say this despite the fact we have register longer than any other country and still have weapons.
Yes, but that doesn't mean it will not happen. A slow process of illegalization and removal will be more effective than the ATF storming house to take them away.
quote:You say this despite the fact our constitution says we can have firearms
Apparently, you're living under a rock. There is a debate going on over whether or not the 2'nd Amendment applys today.
quote:You say this despite that our countries our independant. You say this despite America leads to world, not the other way around.
I see. If America jumps off the proverbial bridge, the rest of the world should too?
quote:The pros of gun registration I have given outwiegh your one con, that is MIGHT lead to confiscation
Pro-takes guns away after people have been killed and the crime is comitted. Big advantage.
quote:You give speculations, I give facts.
Hmm. I suppose the very happening of Nazi Germany, gun control and tightening of restrictions in countrys today, these aren't facts? Dang, ya just can't trust history.
quote:Explain how your "wrong marine, I am right because I say, even tough I have ZERO facts" provesyour point over mine
If that made any sense whatsoever, rest assured I'd have a good reply. However, going with what information I have (even tough, provesyour, I hear there's a market for new words and ways of creating a sentence). To find the presumable answer to your mishamash, simply go back. Read one of Marines and one of my posts. (only one, since he says the same thing over and over again throughout the succession of respondings.) You'll get your answer.
quote:Registration might lead to confisation in Europe and Canada, but not in America. Your arguement that registration leads to confiscation does not hold true in America because you have no proof.
Why wouldn't it happen in America? What makes the US so special? I have no proof that it willhappen in the US. I can't, and you know it which is why you resort to this tactic when you know your arguments are futile. I have no proof that it willhappen in
My father is 64. They have been registering firearme as long as he has been alive. That is longer than all countries that have gun controll registered firearm before they took them away. Registration might lead to confisation in Europe and Canada, but not in America. Your arguement that registration leads to confiscation does not hold true in America because you have no proof.
It is obvious you do not understand how it will make society safer by taking firearm away from felons and carzies. I am at a loss of words because I never knew anyone was that stupid. I'm sorry, I can not explain it any better. If you refuse to believe it than you have no one to blame but yourself for you confussion. And fool, not every person who is a felon or crazy is born that way. Sometimes the become one. Did that ever cross your mind? Some of them are fine citizens till they snap. Once they snap, they do not need a gun. And how can we be gaurnteed they will lose that gun if they are not registered. It will not prevent all felons from givin up guns, but it will prevent some. Some is better than none in a case like this.
"it makes it slightly easier for the criminal in question to be tracked if he's dumb enough to leave his gun at the scene of a crime.? - You obvious don't read everything I write. Criminals do not need to leave a gun, simply a bullet shot from the gun. Did you completley skip over the ballistics info I posted for you?
You say registration led to confiscation in Canada and Europe but you admitt you are allowed ot have guns in Canada. Get you story straight. As for the German school shootings, how many have they had and how many have we had? Huh, the numbers sure do show something. Also, who cares baout your registration budget. Ours is fine. Perhaps your socialisits should take a lesson in economics from us.
If your government does not use ballistics reports to find and convict crimanals than you have a justice department as primitive as the Csech Republic.
As I have said. We do not follow in the footsteps of other countries, they follow in ours. We still own guns, they do not, big deal. Our countries our INDEPENDANT. Do you really want to argue this? Find a new arguement. What happens in England and Germany is completley irrelevant to what happens here. Perhaps you are confussed and think we have only one worldwide government.
"Your theory is akin to saying that because Japan was the last enemy country left standing in WWII, it would never surrender because it's held out longer." - This is the most foolish speculation I have ever heard in my life. Your theory is akin to saying Japan should have surrendered after Berlin fell so they wouldn't fall off the ban wagon.
You have proven no point. You are simply assuming since registration lead to confiscation in Europe it will in America. You say this despite the fact we have register longer than any other country and still have weapons. You say this despite the fact our constitution says we can have firearms, unlike the European countries. You say this despite that our countries our independant. You say this despite America leads to world, not the other way around.
The pros of gun registration I have given outwiegh your one con, that is MIGHT lead to confiscation. You give speculations, I give facts. Explain how your "wrong marine, I am right because I say, even tough I have ZERO facts" provesyour point over mine
I dont think whats stated in the bill of rights is a good reason to not bann guns,The bill of rights shouldant have anything to do with it,because its written on the bill of rights doesant make it right,but protection does,we all might need guns to protect us or our families one day(and very probably will) even those of us who dont live in "not so nice areas".
Guns can't be band, it's in the bill of rights,"the right to bear arms" It's the second amendment and no matter how many people get hurt we were born with the right to carry a gun so really there's is nothing you can do about it. Plus some people who live in not-such-nice areas need a gun for protection.
Thanks for the explaination, wasn't clear on how that worked. Down to buisness,
quote:It will make it harder for them to do it.
It will make it no harder, it makes it slightly easier for the criminal in question to be tracked if he's dumb enough to leave his gun at the scene of a crime. That is, if he registered it.
quote:I feel much safer knowing the government knows this insted of the government not knowing what crazy or felon has a gun.
And of course every crazy felon out there is going to register his gun, put a trigger lock on it and store ammunition seperate from the weapon. And when the ATF drops by to pick up your guns, good luck.
quote:Moron, Canada and Europe have complete gun control.
Just for the record, I live in Canada. Our gun control is not complete, we can own firearms. We need to register them, a process which has gone several hundred percent overbudget, and I have never heard of a case where the gun was tracked using the registration number. Crime has expirienced nothing out of the usual minor fluctuations. As for Europe, it's amazing how gun control stopped that shooting at the German school. (wait-it didn't. my mistake)
quote:And yet we still don't have it.
That is good that you don't have it.
quote:I never said crimes were never solved, I said it was easier. Read what I write.
Read what you write? I suppose these quotes materialized out of thin air.
quote:You say registration does not take away freedoms yet. This is a blind speculation because we have registered longer than all countries that have taken away guns and we still own them.
That is your quote in full. It is not a blind speculation,simply because it can happen and evidence (namely, the chains of events that happened in those other countrys, begining with gun control) is apparent. The length makes no difference. Your theory is akin to saying that because Japan was the last enemy country left standing in WWII, it would never surrender because it's held out longer.
quote:It is still obvious you are not reading my posts in full and are twisting what I say to prove your point.
Aren't yet, but I can if you want. Besides, I've already proved my point over yours, but I like a challenge.
Ballistics began as the study of the flight paths of projectiles, but modern ballistics now includes the study of everything to do with firearms.
Examination of the interior of the barrel of a weapon discovered near a crime can be useful. A layer of dust or rust particles or a spider web in the barrel is a good indication that it has not been fired recently. If the gun in question was fired close to the victim, particles of blood, human tissue, or fabric from the wound may be found in the barrel.
Identification of a fired bullet by class (calibre type of casing) is not too difficult, if the bullet is still in reasonably good shape. Proving that a bullet was fired from a particular gun is made easier by the fact that the barrels of all modern pistols and rifles (but not shotguns) are 'rifled', that is, one or more spiral grooves carved down the length of the barrel's interior. When the weapon is fired the pressure causes the bullet to expand slightly to fill the grooves, which makes the bullet spin, improving the accuracy of the gun and leaving the bullet with the marks caused by the grooves. This pattern makes it possible for the ballistics expert to find which gun fired the bullet, or at least to narrow down the number of possibilities.
CT scanning is now being used to determine the calibre of a bullet when it may not be possible to remove the bullet from the body."
"But will that prevent the crime from happening? And I still await an example of when this tracking system has worked." It will make it harder for them to do it. Nothing can prevent a crime, just make it harder. Your example is given.
"Registartion only marks you down, so they know what you have and where you have it" You're right, that is the purpose. I feel much safer knowing the government knows this insted of the government not knowing what crazy or felon has a gun. Also so I can know if my children are going to a house with a gun.
Moron, Canada and Europe have complete gun control. And yet we still don't have it. Find a new example. Besides, they follow us, we do not follow them since the revolution.
I never said crimes were never solved, I said it was easier. Read what I write.
"You say registration does not take away freedoms yet" Qoute me in full. Do not chop up my qoutes. Guns can be confiscated. But last time I checked, 49 other states in union still have guns. Even people in California still have guns. So I guess that means 50 states still have guns.
It is still obvious you are not reading my posts in full and are twisting what I say to prove your point.
quote:California's current travail illustrates the way governments use gun registration to violate the Constitution and break faith with the people. "Ugly" guns that were registered in the past are now being confiscated because one state official decided to reclassify as illegal, guns that had been "permitted" to be legal. California is only the most recent example of the bad faith of governments who have the names and addresses of gun owners in their possession. In New York City back in the 1960's, New York City officials made some promises.
They wanted to register long guns over the vocal opposition of the city's gun owners. The city fathers promised they would never use such lists to take away firearms from the citizenry. But in 1991, the city banned (and soon began confiscating) many of those very guns.
The Daily News reported in 1992 the "Police raided the home of a Staten Island man who refused to comply with the city's tough ban on assault weapons, and seized an arsenal of firearms....Spot checks are planned [for other homes]."
Is there not something wrong with this picture? In a country where "We, the people" are sovereign, how do we end up having the servants tell the masters when they can have permission to exercise their rights?
PLease refeain from calling others fools, Marine, when you have yet to master grade 4 spelling with any regularity.
quote:I said we register firearms to take them away from people who own them and then become felons and mentally unstable.
But will that prevent the crime from happening? And I still await an example of when this tracking system has worked.
quote:As for Nazi Germany, the took guns away in less than 5 years. We have had gun control laws now for well over ten.
And the American/Canadian/European goverments are taking slower, to invoke less fear of what could happen. You are clearly one of those who has fallen to their propoganda. Registartion only marks you down, so they know what you have and where you have it-know what to take away.
quote:? They can tell what kind of gun shot a bullet.
Find me one incident in which this happened, and I'll believe you.
quote:If you think it is easier to blindly look for a person who own a beretta than look for a person who own a beretta on a registered list than you lack brain capacity.
If I thought that, rest assured that I'd be repeating the second grade. If you think I think that, you must be writing from an asylum. Crimes were regularly solved before this came into effect, you know.
quote:You say registration does not take away freedoms yet
I knew that as soon as I posted it.
quote:This is a blind speculation because we have registered longer than all countries that have taken away guns and we still own them.
So you deny that guns could be confinscated?
quote:As for california. I do not know the whole sotry, give a link to a credible site to read up on it.
Righty ho, next post'll have it.
quote:As for my ten year qoute, that was in reference to people who own guns, become felons, serve jail time, get out and still own a gun.
Pie, you fool, you read nothing I said. It is comletley obvious you have jumped around, read only a few sentences and did not read the previous and following sentences pretaining to it.
I said we register firearms to take them away from people who own them and then become felons and mentally unstable.
As for Nazi Germany, the took guns away in less than 5 years. We have had gun control laws now for well over ten. I do not see us waving swasticas out our windows, do you?
Pie, ever hear of foresnic scientists? They can tell what kind of gun shot a bullet. If you think it is easier to blindly look for a person who own a beretta than look for a person who own a beretta on a registered list than you lack brain capacity.
You say registration does not take away freedoms yet. This is a blind speculation because we have registered longer than all countries that have taken away guns and we still own them.
As for california. I do not know the whole sotry, give a link to a credible site to read up on it.
As for my ten year qoute, that was in reference to people who own guns, become felons, serve jail time, get out and still own a gun. If you read my entire paragraph you would read I said that is why we must register to disarm people who become felons.
quote:Locutus, guns are not registered to slowly take away our gun rights.
Look at Nazi Germany, ect, and you'll see that indeed they are.
quote:to make sure felons and mentally unstale people do not have one and to track guns in a crime.
Criminals don't obey the law. Since they don't obey the law, which means they won't register their guns, put trigger locks on them, ect ect, registration does sh!te all. Ever heard of the black market?
quote:If we allowed felons, who hate our government and legal system and have spent 10 years building their rage, they will more than likley resort to using that gun.
If his gun isn't registered, how could he be tracked?
quote:As for crimes, if we did not register guns, then it would be a hay day for police trying to find a person who shot someone
Please locate and post links to some examples of th
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