not according to the morals at the time, thus continuing to prove that morality is 1. unstable, 2. unnatural and 3. changeable at the whims of the masses
and I've given the reasons we have guns and repeating myself if getting very old
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Slavery didn't become wrong, slavery was wrong, it just took people hundreds of years to realize it.
I know things aren't always black and white, but you seem to think so when talking about guns.
I don't think guns are "bad" and no one should be allowed to have them, I just think we need to take a look at and analize 1)why does everyone need to be able to have a gun if they want to(forgetting that it's their right, why do we feel like we need that?) and 2) what we were talking about before, this violent culture and the role it plays in people feeling they need guns.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
Only according to your morals and the majority changed their minds in line with those beliefs. and so slavery became wrong. There is no black and white maya, only wonderful shades of grey
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
I've done some reading on the subject but I haven't ome up with anything that gives a convincing explanation.
I also have not found an explanation, I don't know why as I said, I just know it is
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
I honestly don't know why your asking me. I just accept how it is and deal with it. I don't like it but I deal with it. You want an analysis of of american violence go talk to a cultural anthroplogist
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No, the majority rules, but that doesn't mean they're right.
No, no you see it's the same thing with religion. We all think "X" is a very bad thing, therefore it is wrong. So those people over there who happen to like "X" are bad. Morality and those other lovely things are completely artifical so the definition of "right" and "wrong" changes depending on the majority of people views on the subject. If you have a majority of people who think weed smoking is good, then is the right thing to smoke weed, if you have a majority of people who think smoking weed is a bad thing, then pot smokers are bad people. Everything is subject to change on the majority of people's opinions
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Originally posted by ampmaster: Well it's this lovely concept we call democracy that mandates that what the majority of us think, is right. You want the minority to be right? I'm sure there's several dictatorships you can visit to see what that's like
No, the majority rules, but that doesn't mean they're right.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
as to spain, *raises fist* go spain, goody for them! b^_^d in other news...
Really that is great that they were able to bounce back in to nice, happy peaceful people from that
ahhahah seriously, why? what makes american culture violent? why is violence so present in society? History is ruled out because circumstances have proven that a violent past doesn't equate to a violent future, so what is it?
only from people who are dead wrong, on the matter of gun control at least
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since when is the majority always right huh?
Well it's this lovely concept we call democracy that mandates that what the majority of us think, is right. You want the minority to be right? I'm sure there's several dictatorships you can visit to see what that's like
as to spain, *raises fist* go spain, goody for them! b^_^d in other news...
Really that is great that they were able to bounce back in to nice, happy peaceful people from that
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
This nation has been involved in more mass wound/death wars then any one else. The revolution that spawned our nation was pretty bloody and the war we fought against each other? I'm amazed the grass at Gettysburg and in the wilderness still isn't red from blood. As a nation we have had to fight constantly and that changes your culture.
You are not a beatifull and unique snowflake. There is nothing unique about the revolution. Practically all modern nations came to be through war and bloodshed. Following maya's example of spain, there was a civil war there less than 80 years ago. Half of the country was trying to kill the other half because some where fascists and the other half where republicans. And when the fascists won through the help of hitler and mussolini they imprisoned and executed thousands of people because of their republican ideas. There was a dictatorship here also for 36 years, during this dictatorship the upper classes of society which where typically very conservative recieved preferential treatment by the legal system, and people where continuosly thrown in jail for demanding democratic elections and political freedom. There was even open repression of catalan and bask culture, both languages being completely ilegal and penalized with jail sentences. There was also open censorship, and the media was controled by the government.
And guess what, in 1975 Franco died, spain converted to a democratic country, and no one, NO ONE, has ever tried to take up arms and kill people out of resentment from the 36 years of opression under a fascist regime that people had to endure.
I don't think there is any other country in the world with a history like that that can claim to be as peacefull. Also, we're not talking about this happening over a century ago like in the US, we're talking relatively recent history. I've met 5 people, all them very old now, that actually fought in the civil war. Some of them where republicans and served in jail, one of them was even on death row and managed to get out by pure luck, but what all of them held in common is that they accept what happened as part of the past, and only want life to be peacefull.
I'm not saying XYZ is better or worse, I'm merely questioning why America is so violent in many aspects when it is clear that human beings are capable of living in peace even after sufferinf circumstances like those I've just described.
Whatever Amp, you see this is why I didn't want to get into this debate with you. Because you are so fucking close-minded and unwilling to even acknowledge the possibility of anything being wrong with the US, you can't take any criticism. And by the way, since when is the majority always right huh? Last time I checked the majority can be wrong, way fucking wrong. Anyway I'm going for a run now so I won't be responding for another hour or so. Maybe less.
Oh and if you'd understood anything in my last post you'd see I wasn't saying it was only about guns, I was saying it's a cultural thing. But no way could that be a possibility. The US is the best country in the fucking world right? We can't possibly have anything wrong with us can we?
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
if every single fucking night you turn on the news and there have been 500 murders
Try 5 and that's if your some where like compton
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We shouldn't have to think that if we don't own a gun we will get murdered in our sleep.
The majority of gun owners don't think we will, but if that eventualitiy comes I'm going to have a chance to survive, and if it happens for others *shrugs* I'll send nice flowers to the funeral
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I'm saying there's something wrong with us.
Well you are entitled to that opinion, however have you considered it's you who has the problem? cause I and the majority of us feel fine.
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There's something fundamentally wrong with that idea.
why? humans have been getting weapons since we found out that we could cave a skull in with a rock
Where I live we have a ton of guns, tons and you know what? I can't honestly remember our last murder. Lotta guns in alaska and montana to, very low murder rates. California? murder rates so high their off the charts and they have incredibly strict gun control
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Originally posted by ampmaster: That's a typical reaction just about any where. Sorry to say. In America we need to say it more often. So if you want to raise the place as a standard and america sucks so hard core, get the fuck out of here
Amp, did you not read what I just posted?
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The key to it is that it's not related to guns!
The culture of violence is related to the US, there is something wrong with out country if every single fucking night you turn on the news and there have been 500 murders. I'm not saying it's the number of guns people own, I'm saying there's something wrong with us. That is not normal. It should not happen. And that is the reason so many people FEEL probably they need to have guns. There's something fundamentally wrong with that idea. We shouldn't have to think that if we don't own a gun we will get murdered in our sleep. That's what I was trying to say. I don't know how else to say it.
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Originally posted by ampmaster: Go find out why they put Article 2 in there, obviously it was important, cause it was the second thing they came up with.
At that time it was necessary, times change don't they? That was exactly the point I think speed was making.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
Typical American reaction, "if you don't like it here, move!"
That's a typical reaction just about any where. Sorry to say. In America we need to say it more often. So if you want to raise the place as a standard and america sucks so hard core, get the fuck out of here
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why the fuck there's so much violence in our culture
This nation has been involved in more mass wound/death wars then any one else. The revolution that spawned our nation was pretty bloody and the war we fought against each other? I'm amazed the grass at Gettysburg and in the wilderness still isn't red from blood. As a nation we have had to fight constantly and that changes your culture. And honstly that culture of violence is reducing US murder rates are only dropping. The key to it is that it's not related to guns! As I said before take the guns away we'd have people killing each other with knives and all sorts of other weapons improvised or not. And guess what? people would still have guns. Except now only the bad guys have them. You taken the guns, from all the law abiding citizens. You think a criminal is gonna hand his piece over? fuck no, he doesn't obey the law any way. So you've disarmed the good people and left the bad guys armed. Sounds like we're asking for a jump in violent crime to me
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It's just ilogical, all european nations have learned to live peacefully, and people don't even feel like they need guns for their defense,
Wrong! In Switzerland where all males and females have to join their national guard everyone and I do mean everyone has a high powered assualt rifle (full auto and everything) in their closet and likely a few more firearms besides. Sounds like they feel they need guns to me...
In the end all gun control policy is punishing the many for the acts of the few. The vast majority (think 99.8%) of legal gun owners will never commit a violent crime. 2% of legal owners and a bunch of criminal scum will. Why are you punishing us for their actions? We didn't do shit and yet we catch crap like that
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I'd like to point out that it being in the constitution doesn't make it automatically right.
doesn't make it wrong either however it is the law, so it is my right and gun control is infringing on my rights. The found fathers were smart guys can we agree on that? Go find out why they put Article 2 in there, obviously it was important, cause it was the second thing they came up with.
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Then fucking go there! If there is so much better than here, GO THERE!
I don't think that is what it's about. I think it's about how ilogical american culture seems in some aspects. We are the first world power, the most technologically developed nation in the world, we have high life standards, yet for some reason the crime rate, and especially death by firearms index, are more than 10 times higher than the rest of the first world. It's just incomprehensible. If everything points to life in the US being great(as long as you're not poor or live in a black suburban ghetto), why do so many people die because their neighbours murder them with their H&K USP.45?? What me and maya are trying to say is what is wrong with american culture that causes all the stuff we see on the news.
It's just ilogical, all european nations have learned to live peacefully, and people don't even feel like they need guns for their defense, thus no one has firearms and no one kills people using them. On the other hand here people feel a compulsive need to own guns for their safety, but the only thing that truely menaces their safety is owning these same guns which are meant to protect them.
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It is, ProTip: Read: The Bill of Rights, Article 2
I'd like to point out that it being in the constitution doesn't make it automatically right. It's the same as debating morality according to religious doctrine. We can't apply the same moral precepts that where applied when the bible was written because the context is completely different. There are articles o the constitution which are universal, like equality and freedom, but there are others that don't fit the context of a culturally developed first world nation. Of course, this is relative and entirely reliant on one's perspectiv of things, but if we are to go by statistics then we must accept that firearms aren't a guarantee of safety.
Originally posted by ampmaster: It is, ProTip: Read: The Bill of Rights, Article 2
I know I've referenced this before....
Exactly. And the reason why I'm through debating with you, because I know it's not a debate I can ever win, or even get you to reason with.
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Then fucking go there! If there is so much better than here, GO THERE!
Typical American reaction, "if you don't like it here, move!" Also, I thought one of those "great" things about the US is that you can hate it, criticize, as a way to better the country. It's not about being unpatriotic, it's about being more patriotic. Sitting back an accepting things just because that's the way they are, is the least patriotic thing you can do. I was trying to make a point, that Spain didn't have guns and it's not so fucking bad. I think there's some cultural thing in the US to do with violence like I've said five hundred times. And here's the thing, for me it's not just about defending myself, it's about trying to figure out why the fuck there's so much violence in our culture, and if there's a way to reduce it.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
yes we should all have guns because if we had we could've avoided the Holocaust."
not what I meant. They could have fought back. Actually a group of jews did get guns and did fight back in the warsaw ghetto. Course they lost 7 or 8 men just getting the guns by attacking soldiers with their bare hands, sure would have been easier had they had them before
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I know it is stuck in all Americans fucking heads that it is our right, period
It is, ProTip: Read: The Bill of Rights, Article 2
I know I've referenced this before....
You know, you seem to have not seen it so here I'll give you the short version:
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The right of the citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
Seems pretty damn cut and dried to me
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what about Spain Amp? Do you know anything about Spain? They don't have guns and I'm sure there's a lot less crime and gun violence and murder than there is in this fucking crazy country.
Then fucking go there! If there is so much better than here, GO THERE!
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Amp you said before you don't like people making assumptions about you if they don't know you, well same here. Half my family is Jewish, and I can talk to them plenty they're not going to say "yes we should all have guns because if we had we could've avoided the Holocaust." Don't give me that as an argument. The reason I don't like debating this guns issue is because I know it is stuck in all Americans fucking heads that it is our right, period. But don't give me that crap. what about Spain Amp? Do you know anything about Spain? They don't have guns and I'm sure there's a lot less crime and gun violence and murder than there is in this fucking crazy country.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
So don't tell me that we don't live in a country with a tremendous culture of violence and fear
I never said that about the violence. and I have several weapons and firearms and I know I don't fear. You can fear I'm ready for what comes.
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if we think it is necessary for everyone to be able to purchase a gun, simply because.
Let's examine the cultures of other nations who have banned guns and their cultures. The USSR, Nazi Germany, Communist China, North Korea, oooh and even Saddam's Iraq all had complete and total gun bans. So from what you say they should have all been nice, pleasent societys. Well guess what sister the vast majority of nations that ban firearms are not nice people. All those nations I have listed have slaughtered mass numbers of their own people. Do you know what those people could do about it? Nothing because the first thing those dictators and scum did was to take their guns away. You want to hear a good pro-gun argument go talk to a holocaust surviver or other old jew. They'll gve you an ear full on the subject.
By the way, I have a question for you gun ban folks. Just how do you think your going to take our guns? Most of the people you'd send to get our guns are us. Gun people. And even if you could find someone to do it. Well you've all seen the bumper stickers.
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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