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The right to exist. So you resist entering freely into a democratic body to defend our sovereignty. Because we need it to deny the sovereignty of other nations.

Tyranny has no right to exist. I guess this is our fundemental difference. You think tyranny has a right to exist, I don't.

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A viable alternative is to make the free trade agreement contingent upon the enforcement of labor and corruption laws.

Fair enough, are you not concerned that by doing this we will be place at a disadvantage to other countries that do not do the same?

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If you find something to be immoral and do nothing, you are a coward. I know you want me to abandon my moral for the economic prosperity of free trade- sorry to disappoint you.

What are you talking about? This is completly off topic and has nothing do with anything on this forum; however, it is clear that you blame America, corporations, and American citizens now.

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I don't know what corrupt ideology leads you to care about tyranny over an American human more than a regular human.

That's not the point - no one is talking about anyone's moral ideology. You are trying to change the topic. You would rather have a President that violates American rights over a president that does not violate American rights?

There is nothing amoral about a country existing, as you say is their right. So if existing entails protecting its exsistence with certain treatment of foreign nationals who are attempting to remove the state's right to exist the country is well within its rights that you given it.

By your definition of soveriengty it would never be okay to invade another country, even with the approval of other world democracies. How do you explain that?

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I'm talking about slavery.

Oh, I see. Since Lincoln freed the slaves it makes up for revoking Habbeas Corpus on American citizens. I don't know what corrupt ideology leads you to that conclusion.

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It is not our duty to extend civil rights, it is our duty to extend human rights.

So by this rational, as long as we give everyone due process we can once again segregate schools.

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If you find something to be immoral and do nothing, you are a coward.

You seem to be the only who finds so many things immoral and, I hate to break it to you, but complaining about them on youthNOISE doesn't really count as doing something - in fact, it counts as doing nothing. Zing.

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I'm still waiting for a viable alternative to the free market that does not put us years behind the industrial world economically.

I have no problem with breaking down trade barriers between developed nations or nations with adequate labor laws. A viable alternative is to make the free trade agreement contingent upon the enforcement of labor and corruption laws.

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I guess the only person who is blameless is you.

I am culpable as well. I buy corn grown by Cargill.

It's not about blame. It's about the policy decisions our government makes every day. If you find something to be immoral and do nothing, you are a coward. I know you want me to abandon my moral for the economic prosperity of free trade- sorry to disappoint you.

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Lincoln denied rights to American citizens, Bush has not done this.

I don't know what corrupt ideology leads you to care about tyranny over an American human more than a regular human.

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You can not give credit to a person for ending something they started.

I'm talking about slavery.

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I guess you have never heard of soveriegnty. Please explain what rights countries have.

The right to exist. So you resist entering freely into a democratic body to defend our sovereignty. Because we need it to deny the sovereignty of other nations.

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That wasn't the question, is America a force of good or bad in the world? Yes or no.

That question doesn't make sense then. Or country is a force for little or nothing in the world. our government is quite powerful. So I will again state that the Bush led government is a force for bad.

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Citizen's rights are not immediatly extended to non-citizens.

There are civil right and there are human rights. Without habeus corpus, government violates the rights. It is not our duty to extend civil rights, it is our duty to extend human rights.

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What if those countries said no? I guess we would have to abandon doing the right thing.

If the courts let someone off who you feel to be guilty, do you have the right to deal with him yourself

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We did the right thing in Korea. If the other natinos of the world said no, we would never have gone there and more people would be under the tyrannical regime of N. Korea.

But the world didn't.

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Take an international political theory class.

Oh, I forgot, you are way more educated than everyone else. Thank God you are here to enlighten all of us with your superior intellect. We should all be humbled that someone like you is here to shed light on the dark masses.

You extrapolation is wrong, pure and simple. You make a stretch to fit your argument when there is no grounds to make that stretch at all. If I recall, I'm not the first person to point concerns in using Hobbes in the context you are using him in. Countries can not be in a state of a nature because of the very fact that a country exsists to prevent the state of nature. When two countries are at war neither is in a state of nature because they are countries - formed to prevent the state of nature. Countries are not individuals.

Why don't you give me contact information of the person that told you your stretch was correct so I can look into it further.

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Classic American cop out.

I'm still waiting for a viable alternative to the free market that does not put us years behind the industrial world economically. I'm beginning to think you have no viable alternative.

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If I had to blame someone, it would be Bill Clinton, maybe Cargill.

Exactly my point, you blame America and business. I guess the only person who is blameless is you.

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I guess you are referencing an instance in which Lincoln approved the abandonment of due process? Just because an overall good president does something bad, does not make him tyrannical.

Right, so why are you calling Bush Tyrannical? Lincoln denied rights to American citizens, Bush has not done this.

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He ended the greatest tyranny our nation has engaged in.

You can not give credit to a person for ending something they started.

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Only if what we are doing violates the rights of another state.

I guess you have never heard of soveriegnty. Please explain what rights countries have.

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But I guess with your reactionaries running the government, that would happen quite a bit.

If you think Bush is a reactionary you do not know what reactionary means. Bush is far from reactionary.

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The Bush led government is a force for bad in the world.

That wasn't the question, is America a force of good or bad in the world? Yes or no.

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Only if what we are doing violates the rights of another state. But I guess with your reactionaries running the government, that would happen quite a bit.

You would have us ask other countries if we needed to do the right thing. What if those countries said no? I guess we would have to abandon doing the right thing.

We did the right thing in Korea. If the other natinos of the world said no, we would never have gone there and more people would be under the tyrannical regime of N. Korea.

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We can't claim to be a force for human rights in the world if we engage in torture without due process. I maybe wouldn't be so outraged by torture if it was happening to people who had already been convicted. But without a respect for habeus corpus, the government can only be a tyrannical entity.

Citizen's rights are not immediatly extended to non-citizens. There are only extended if we choose to extend them. I choose not to give terrorists my rights.

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Open markets are here and there is no viable option to avoid an open market.

Like manifest destiny. But we aren't killing Indians and taking their land, destiny is. Classic American cop out.

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So I guess its settled, you think America and corporations are too blame.

That's a little broad. If I had to blame someone, it would be Bill Clinton, maybe Cargill. The rest of the pro nafta people are just continuing what he sparked.

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Yeah, you're right, Lincoln is tyrannical asshole.

I guess you are referencing an instance in which Lincoln approved the abandonment of due process? Just because an overall good president does something bad, does not make him tyrannical. He ended the greatest tyranny our nation has engaged in.

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So I'm right, you want a world government to tell us what to do

Only if what we are doing violates the rights of another state. But I guess with your reactionaries running the government, that would happen quite a bit.

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Yes or no: Do you think that America is a force for bad in the world?

The Bush led government is a force for bad in the world.

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You have stretched the idea of a leader of a group of people with a social contract to cover something that is simply not covered in Leviathan.

Take an international political theory class.

Bushsupporter, you are being silly. It is clear that Foreign Policy is the only way to determine what a good country is.

What a moron. Yes or no: Do you think that America is a force for bad in the world?

I am not talking about out "bully foreign policy" but our consistent good that we give to the rest of the world.

Remember Yes or No.

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Why do you support open markets?

I have already explained that there is no need to discuss this. Open markets are here and there is no viable option to avoid an open market. If you have any better ideas, with putting America decades behind other countries, I'd love to hear them.

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The government has streamline commerce in a way that gives corporations (bad ones, not all are bad) the ability to move into these countries and begin their opposition to democratic change.

So I guess its settled, you think America and corporations are too blame.

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To be held in a constant state of drowning is quite violent, that's why the Japanese did it to us in WWII.

No one is being held in a constant state of drowning. They are being placed in a temporary state where it feels like you are drowning but you really aren't.

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But without a respect for habeus corpus, the government can only be a tyrannical entity.

Yeah, you're right, Lincoln is tyrannical asshole. Shame on him.

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No I am not. I am saying that to overthrow a government, you need a majority among democracies.

So I'm right, you want a world government to tell us what to do and only when the world government tells us what to do we are conducting good foreign policy.

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The realist or Hobbesian model says than the world needs a leader with power to keep other nations in check (a Leviathan). Without that, they will drift into violent and self interested conflict. The Bush/Clinton approach to the world mirrors this idea.

Your interpretation, I'm afraid, is not correct in regards to a world leader. Leviathan does not bring up a world leader. You have stretched the idea of a leader of a group of people with a social contract to cover something that is simply not covered in Leviathan. Please provide proof from Hobbes says we need a world leader.

I have fallen your trap and will no longer discuss this. This debate is about why you think America sucks, not Hobbes, Kant, and Locke. I'm sorry I asked for your explanation on why you are improperly using Hobbes in this debate.

Sorry to double post, but you deserve a response to your whole post.

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Perhaps it would have been better for me to say open markets,

Why do you support open markets?

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So what is it, companies or the United States?

The government has streamline commerce in a way that gives corporations (bad ones, not all are bad) the ability to move into these countries and begin their opposition to democratic change.

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I fundamentally disagree - acts that create discomfort are not torture in my opinion.

I would describe the panic and sensation of drowning as having more than a little discomfort. Many people consider drowning to be one of the most terrible ways to die. To be held in a constant state of drowning is quite violent, that's why the Japanese did it to us in WWII.

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I don't dispute the fact that handing over terrorists to foreign governments happens; however, these are terrorists that are chosen for a reason

We can't claim to be a force for human rights in the world if we engage in torture without due process. I maybe wouldn't be so outraged by torture if it was happening to people who had already been convicted. But without a respect for habeus corpus, the government can only be a tyrannical entity.

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By your new explanation on American Foreign policy you are suggesting that an international majority is required for all good foreign policy.

No I am not. I am saying that to overthrow a government, you need a majority among democracies. There are foreign policy actions that to not concern relieving a government of their right to govern.

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Please explain you constant reference to Hobbes. I have read Leviathan and do not see any relations to foreign policy whatsoever.

In International political theory, Hobbes' ideas of life without a single leader being "poor nasty, solitary, brudish and short" is extrapolated onto the way government relate.

The realist or Hobbesian model says than the world needs a leader with power to keep other nations in check (a Leviathan). Without that, they will drift into violent and self interested conflict. The Bush/Clinton approach to the world mirrors this idea.

This idea contrasts primarily with Kant's extrapolation of the republic onto the relations of states. In this model, a nation (like a person) has sovereign rights inherent in its existence. If that nation does something to relinquish its rights (like Locke would say a person does when they place themselves into a state of war with someone), than it is up to the republican body to decide what should be done.


In liberal democracies, we officiate and carry out law as a republic, not as vigilantes. We decide our laws together, and decide how to carry them out together.

Right now, the United States government is the most powerful in the world. We can continue our realist approach to the world, and when we lose our status as the most powerful nation in the world in 100 years (or whenever it happens) the next government may not match our liberal values.

If we set up rule of law and international order with other democratic nations, we won't lose the world to despotism when our time as biggest kid on the playground expires. So while we still have this power, we owe it to Man and his future peace to set a precedent of international concordance.

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Let's start by stating that you likely mean lassez faire market when you say free market.

This is an incorrect observation. Perhaps it would have been better for me to say open markets, but that is essentially the free market.

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In many of the countries we are investing in, their citizens are not afforded the protections that ours are. Our companies pay off officials to keep it that way too.

So what is it, companies or the United States? Your muddling your points by saying America is to blame but then saying companies are to blame? If you believe in individualism than you can not infer that when companies do wrong America is doing wrong. If by paying off officials you mean investing in the country and their infrastructure, you are correct.

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But to say that one is much more brutal than the other does not disqualify the lesser act from being torture.

I fundamentally disagree - acts that create discomfort are not torture in my opinion.

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Our heritage demands that we hold a higher standard than the one that says if it's not as bad as what the Nazis and Viet Cong did than it's not torture.

Now this being overly dramatic. Causing discomfort, even severe discomfort, does not even approach a playing field where it can be compared to the Vietcong and Nazis.

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Waterboarding aside, we give our detainees over to other governments with the full knowledge and intention that they be brutally tortured. Hiring someone to do something for you is akin to doing yourself.

I don't dispute the fact that handing over terrorists to foreign governments happens; however, these are terrorists that are chosen for a reason - whether it be a high amount of valuable information or that the foreign country has a greater claim to the terrorist.

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Overthrowing a sovereign state without consensus (or even a majority) among international democratic governments represents a vigilante like approach to foreign relations.

You still have not proven your point, how does this mean our foreign policy is to do whatever we want because nobody can stop us? By your new explanation on American Foreign policy you are suggesting that an international majority is required for all good foreign policy. Its a good thing this rationale wasn't around during the Revolution.

Please explain you constant reference to Hobbes. I have read Leviathan and do not see any relations to foreign policy whatsoever.

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All industrialized nations are embracing the free market and there is really no way we will ever leave it behind.

Let's start by stating that you likely mean lassez faire market when you say free market. If so than I must say that we do not have a lassez faire market in the United States. We have regulations and laws regarding commerce. In many of the countries we are investing in, their citizens are not afforded the protections that ours are. Our companies pay off officials to keep it that way too.

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Why don't you read up on what the Vietcong did to American servicemen and then tell me we are torturing people.

In relation to waterboarding, I accept that psychologically attacking someone and then giving them the sensation and panic of drowning is not to be confused with the brutality of beatings and driving bamboo shoots up and underneath finger and toenails. Any one that says it is the same is being dramatic. But to say that one is much more brutal than the other does not disqualify the lesser act from being torture. We are the the first great liberal government, the first great non-patrician republic. Our heritage demands that we hold a higher standard than the one that says if it's not as bad as what the Nazis and Viet Cong did than it's not torture.

Waterboarding aside, we give our detainees over to other governments with the full knowledge and intention that they be brutally tortured. Hiring someone to do something for you is akin to doing yourself.

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This is most certainly not America's foreign policy and I would like to see the documentation that proves this is the official stance of the Bush Administration.

Overthrowing a sovereign state without consensus (or even a majority) among international democratic governments represents a vigilante like approach to foreign relations. The Bush administrations policies are quintessentially realist. To be fair, the Clintons were and are just as Hobbesian.

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Just like your liberal hollywood types - all talk.

Hollywood is idiotic. They haven't earned their media exposure with ideas and work, they have it because they are cool or whatever. When I hear Angelina Jolie, it makes me throw up.