Thats the thing, it has become the everyone else against the United States, and since Canada is a social democracy I can't see how you can say that socialism is precurser of communism, because i really don't see Canada headed in that direction. Question, why is it that so many of your elderly, and those ion need of perscriptions, come to Canada? I think that your opinion on the matter is just as biased as any other persons would be when they live in the circumstances that have come under fire.

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Yes our military is lacking, majorly, and we have a high tax bracket, but personally I think that our citrizens are doing better then alot of yours. Your healthcare, although more efficient to the rich, is pretty much non existent for low income people who can't afford it.

Oh that's the problem, you're position is based off of opinion and ignorance, and are also terribly biased.
The American healthcare system has various programs to cover the poor and low income families, as well as awide variety of insurance plans open to everyone.

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Are you aware that there is a difference between a socialist society and a communist one? Socialits have free enterprise, its just restricted in some areas,

Socialism is the precursor to the abolishment of the free market and the implementation of a communist system.

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and as for the power that the U.S. holds, its wrong for any one state, country, or person to hold that much power.

What can YOU do about it? You're Candian!
MUHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously though, the US is so powerful because we have a system of alliances and a very strong economy. We can't conquer everyone, and everyone can't conquer us. It's a workable equlibrium right now.

Are you aware that there is a difference between a socialist society and a communist one? Socialits have free enterprise, its just restricted in some areas, and as for the power that the U.S. holds, its wrong for any one state, country, or person to hold that much power. Yes our military is lacking, majorly, and we have a high tax bracket, but personally I think that our citrizens are doing better then alot of yours. Your healthcare, although more efficient to the rich, is pretty much non existent for low income people who can't afford it.

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Originally posted by Ipperwash:

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Socialism in that way is, aside from being opressive and inhuman, also impossible to implement.

As of right now Canada is a social democracy, and i have to say that we are not living in the worst conditions. Our healthcare is public, so are the liquor stores in some provinces, even hydro companies. The government has taken it upon themselves to take care of quite a few of Canada's companies, but that does not make us oppressed. Just because we are not making the amount of money that the capitalists of the United States are making does not make us any less better of a country, it actually makes us better in some ways because we take into account the lives of all of our citizens, not just the able bodied and rich.

Your country has virtually no military, the public healthcare system is known for it's inefficiency and astronomical costs, and you pay over a 50% tax rate. The only reason why your government isn't bankrupt is because of the protection and economic support of the US.

You're also beholden to a government for your healthcare.

You are also still a country with private corporations and fairly capitalist economy, and are not a socialist state. There's a difference.

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Socialism in that way is, aside from being opressive and inhuman, also impossible to implement.

As of right now Canada is a social democracy, and i have to say that we are not living in the worst conditions. Our healthcare is public, so are the liquor stores in some provinces, even hydro companies. The government has taken it upon themselves to take care of quite a few of Canada's companies, but that does not make us oppressed. Just because we are not making the amount of money that the capitalists of the United States are making does not make us any less better of a country, it actually makes us better in some ways because we take into account the lives of all of our citizens, not just the able bodied and rich.

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Uhh...it does not Dr. S. Cuba's been hurt by U.S. embargoes against it and any country trading with it for decades, Cubans come here that way because America is rich and they can't get here any other way. Yes, people are oppressed, but part of that must be because Fidel is a dictator with some eccentric and paranoid traits. At least they have food, education, medicine, and zero political chaos, which they didn't have before.

It is this type of thought that scares the crap out of me. "It's ok if people disappear in the night, can't vote, have no freedom of speech or right to property, as long as they're well fed and everything is stable."
That to me is a ludicrous idea of a "successful" country.

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It does show communism is workable...it's better off than a number of capitalist Latin American countries.

It's the WORST of the latin American countries in terms of rights and freedoms. Many of the capitalist and democratic nations are not half bad to live in.

Argentina, probably the worst in terms of political stablity, still has literacy rates and life expectancies comparable with Cuba, yet has a per capita GDP(ppp) that is nearly 6 times that of Cuba, and it's much, much more free today than Fidel's hellhole is.

Look up some actual facts comparing countries:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
http://www.freedomhouse.org

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Because of stupid decisions, not a problem with communism.

No, these projects were attempts to implement a communist way of life. The absolute disasters that followed should be warning to anyone attempting to implement the wacko communal lifestyle that is communism.

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I tend to view capitalism as bad because it's easy for the poor or stupid to be taken advantage of and left in the dust. It seems to me communism seems inherently better because that can't happen, and efficiency would be maximized, allowing for an overall better state of living.

It's just as easy for the poor or stupid to be taken advantage of in Communist or Socialist systems. In fact, in socialist systems, it's EXTREMELY easy for the people to be taken advantage of. Communism is not the answer to the basic problems of human nature. Humans are tribalistic, materialistic, and vain. Unless someone implements a vast brainwashing program to resocialize the entire population, it will fail. The only reason pure communist or socialist systems have even existed for an extended period of time is because of terribly oppressive regiemes driven by communist dogma. Otherwise, free markets and rights to property have still flourished nearly everywhere.

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There's nothing that says it has to be collective mediocrity. I don't see why it's impossible to believe a communist market can still be diverse. And also, trade with capitalist countries is not off limits.

A true communist system is a system of mediocrity. Everyone owns what they need to live, and you just sit in your communes and work in blissful equality. That in my eyes is a terrible waste of human ambition and ability. A person should be allowed to acheive all that is within his ability.

And if communism can only work by leeching off the markets of capitalist countries, then what kind of system is that?
Western civilization has flourished under the concepts of free market and free citizen. Communism has, in every case, stagnated.

-----"""Which explains why Cuba is still a terribly opressive government and dozens if not hundreds of people drown every year in desperate attempts to reach the US. Everyone is waiting for Castro to die so they can fix the system."""

Uhh...it does not Dr. S. Cuba's been hurt by U.S. embargoes against it and any country trading with it for decades, Cubans come here that way because America is rich and they can't get here any other way. Yes, people are oppressed, but part of that must be because Fidel is a dictator with some eccentric and paranoid traits. At least they have food, education, medicine, and zero political chaos, which they didn't have before. I just doubt the poor island farmer is really that concerned about being spied on. Also, the literacy rate in Cuba is higher than it is in the U.S. It does show communism is workable...it's better off than a number of capitalist Latin American countries.


-----"""Tens of millions died in attempts to implement a communist system. Thousands are executed, even more are imprisoned."""

Because of stupid decisions, not a problem with communism.


-----"""Human nature isn't "good" by definition. We really don't know, but I tend to trust Thomas Hobbes. Read some of that."""

I've read SOME...but really I don't see the amazing depth and intelligence, and it seems it's always used as a crutch people use to say "see, Hobbes said it so it's true" when it doesn't really matter anyway, I think some things both C and H say are correct. I tend to view capitalism as bad because it's easy for the poor or stupid to be taken advantage of and left in the dust. It seems to me communism seems inherently better because that can't happen, and efficiency would be maximized, allowing for an overall better state of living.


-----"""I also contenst that Communism is more "good". Is a society where everyone is doomed to collective mediocrity really that great?"""

There's nothing that says it has to be collective mediocrity. I don't see why it's impossible to believe a communist market can still be diverse. And also, trade with capitalist countries is not off limits.

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I doubt that...ideologically communism is just so much more "good" than capitalism. From countries we've cited as having "communist" governmentst seems they are really more socialist.

Human nature isn't "good" by definition. We really don't know, but I tend to trust Thomas Hobbes. Read some of that.

I also contenst that Communism is more "good". Is a society where everyone is doomed to collective mediocrity really that great?

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If you say communism can't be reached because it's just too radical, the same thing could be said about capitalism. Would you want a state in which everything is in the hands of private ownership?

The transition between Communism and any other system is a Socialist government that creates a communist culture. Socialism in that way is, aside from being opressive and inhuman, also impossible to implement. Therefore, communism succeeding is extremely unlikely.

As for a society where everything is in private ownership, that's called Anarchy. Capitalism is not nearly as radical a system as Communism. That said, I'm for a mixed, but minimalist system. I'm not a gung-ho capitalist either.

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The Communist Revolution is what turned China from a crappy country with an insane amount of emaciated peasants and a few ridiculously wealthy individuals into a more equal society with a (more) balanced economy and less poverty. It's the Cultural Revolution that gave Mao's government such a bad name, but I don't think it indicates an inherent problem in communism, just the unfortunately oppressive CCP at that time.

China is one of the least econimcally equal countries on the planet. Tens of millions died in attempts to implement a communist system. Thousands are executed, even more are imprisoned. The only reason China has an explosively growing GNP now is because it's being fueled by capitalist economies overseas. It's not just Mao's government, it's the Chinese system in general.

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Also, communism worked pretty well in Cuba. I think that indicates it's at least feasible.

Which explains why Cuba is still a terribly opressive government and dozens if not hundreds of people drown every year in desperate attempts to reach the US. Everyone is waiting for Castro to die so they can fix the system.

-----"""Communism will never be reached because the capitalist system is too dynamic and powerful to be defeated by a comparatively rigid and oppressive system."""

I doubt that...ideologically communism is just so much more "good" than capitalism. From countries we've cited as having "communist" governments, it seems they are really more socialist. If you say communism can't be reached because it's just too radical, the same thing could be said about capitalism. Would you want a state in which everything is in the hands of private ownership?


-----"""Look at China, they were a huge stalinist communist powerhouse, now they're just a bunch of oppresive thugs over seeing a progessively more capitalistic economy."""

The Communist Revolution is what turned China from a crappy country with an insane amount of emaciated peasants and a few ridiculously wealthy individuals into a more equal society with a (more) balanced economy and less poverty. It's the Cultural Revolution that gave Mao's government such a bad name, but I don't think it indicates an inherent problem in communism, just the unfortunately oppressive CCP at that time. Also, communism worked pretty well in Cuba. I think that indicates it's at least feasible.

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Imagine: No LIbEralS

The Joey version; Imagine: No LIBEraLs.

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umm.. well communism hasnt been achieved..

but really dont know..

ive always had this vision of how communism is such a good thing..

i think communism is good for small countries

I dont know how the hell you have 600+ posts if this is your level of debate and support of your claims. I cannot even begin to argue with you, where do I start...

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Originally posted by DrStrangelove:

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Originally posted by audreee:
i think communism is good..

.. only its hard to really achieve equality and no social statuses

Communism will never be reached because the capitalist system is too dynamic and powerful to be defeated by a comparatively rigid and oppressive system.

Look at China, they were a huge stalinist communist powerhouse, now they're just a bunch of oppresive thugs over seeing a progessively more capitalistic economy.
Russia tried to remain a pure socialist system and went bankrupt.

umm.. well communism hasnt been achieved..

but really dont know..

ive always had this vision of how communism is such a good thing..

i think communism is good for small countries

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Originally posted by audreee:
i think communism is good..

.. only its hard to really achieve equality and no social statuses

Communism will never be reached because the capitalist system is too dynamic and powerful to be defeated by a comparatively rigid and oppressive system.

Look at China, they were a huge stalinist communist powerhouse, now they're just a bunch of oppresive thugs over seeing a progessively more capitalistic economy.
Russia tried to remain a pure socialist system and went bankrupt.

i think communism is good..

.. only its hard to really achieve equality and no social statuses

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think I'd get my mugshot if that happened...

i feel a bit slow at teh moment. what are you saying?

and yet when captian wiliam bradford adopted the principles of free market and private property and got rid of the common wealth and collectivsed agriculture, they immediately begand to floursih.
they knew right then and there that communistic and socialistic principles do not work. they scraped it right there. they didnt spend centuries trying to refine an economically poisonous system.

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no because they had collectivsed agriculture, they starved IN SPITE of the plentiful food stock.

But pilgrims lacked the tech we have today, and the advances in general. We don't know what can happen now with our many advances.

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Imagine: No LIbEralS

I think I'd get my mugshot if that happened...

no because they had collectivsed agriculture, they starved IN SPITE of the plentiful food stock.

I love it when things that happened centuries ago are used to compare governments of today.