Holidays, many use the holidays as an excuse for: unity, getting together, diversity, tolerance, family and friends but is it really? FOr example a well known holiday that is coming up is Christmas: Some say Chirst was born on X-mas, which is why we celebrate it, but Christmas is not of divine appointment nor is it of New Testament Origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the Bible or any other source. Christmas giving-the exchanging of gifts, the spirit reflected in such gift giving does not bring real hapiness but it violates Christian prinicpals! At those found at Matthew 6:3, 4, and 2/ Corinthinas 9: 7.
Also, children are told that gifts are brought by Santa Clauas, St. Nick, Father of X-mas, etc. of course none of those stories are actually true! Some believe that practicing the holidays honar Jesus, is that true? A persoj who really knows and loves Jehovah God does not feel that by shunning practices that honor fasle gods or that promote false hood he is in any way deprived of happiness. For example: Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman's home saying that they are there to celebrate his b-day. He does not like to see the ppl. overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there-except him! On top of that all, they pcik the b-day of one of the man's enemies as the date of the celebration. How would the man feel? Would you want to be a party to it? This is exactly what is being done by Christmas celebrations! Has anyone ever heard of The Devil; Satan, etc. Well he uses the holidays, religion, drugs, sex, as a way to lure ppl. into his political world of spiritism! He makes it look enjoyable but really whom are you worshiping? Thankyou, some may agree with me, some may disagree thats okay to, just thanks for reading. Love, bye.

You know i was just asking my aunt about holidays, you know what? chocolatecandycane you are right. My family were raised as JW's. She said the same thing. Thanks for putting it out there.

If anyone has any questions I'd be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
Luv
~Mela nichole442000@yahoo.com

though i am a bit late, good response dante. Finally, you said something that Joey had no response to because no response he would have come up with would be correct.

Heaven

LOL, being 0wned by teddy=lose. You'll all find that it is gvery hard to probe anything related to religion, as hard as it would be to prove that hobbits exist, etc.

Oh Yea, How do you KNOW YOUR going to Heaven?
How do you go to Heaven? Is it wrong to look up other religions, like Wicca? Is it wrong to listen to music, read books, or see movies that to some people is using God's name in vein. Is God seen in Life, like once on the news, some place said that there was a bolt of lighting that look like the cross, is that god or the devil. Someone said if you see things that look of God's making, that that's The devil trying to trick you. Do you believe in Angels? Do you believe in demons? Could people be Angels or Demons? Could you be evil? Could you wash your sins? I'm confuesd who die for our sins, God Or Jesus? Do you think God will take you as you are, whoever you are? They say if you don't believe in God, your going to Hell, is that truth? Does God Speak to you? Why is there so much pain and wrongness in this world? Is it fair that we get punished for what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eaten, I mean we are all born into sins, isn't that punichment? What came first Adam of Eve or the death of Jeaus? How did we get here, if it was only Adam and Eve at the moment?
I have more But I have to do something else right now.
So Bye N Have a nice day

Im scared of God because of what I read in the Bible.............Is that bad?
Do you think I'm ONLY believing in him because I'm scared?.................That's wrong, right?
Well, That's about all I have to say
Bye N Have a nice day

quote:

---

you seem to put up an interest in the religion, are you interested? (I think you are, otherwise why would you be asking the quetions rite?)

---

Sure, I'm interested in jehovah's witnesses... as much as I'm interested in Buddhism, Hinduism, Wiccan, Judaism, etc. I am interested only to the point of wanting to learn more about it and to understand other religions. I think it is very important to understand other religions and what they believe. In some ways, it is more important to understand jehovah's witnesses than eastern religions because jw's are closer in beliefs to Christianity than, say, hinduism, and it can be hard to distinguish between the two.

Let me be clear, however: I am not interested in becoming a jw. (I apologize for my bluntness, if that came off rude, but I think it is necessary to be very clear on this issue.)

You still haven't told me what was sinful about that specific night. (Where I went out to eat with friends for my birthday.) Yes, I understand the origins of celebrating birthdays might not be the most respectable...but you have to look at what something is, not just what it once was!

quote:

---

I gave you what b-days are associated with (false religion and beliefs)

---

Yes…birthdays were once associated with false religion, but they aren’t practiced this way. Sex is associated with lust and adultery…but that doesn’t mean sex is sinful. I think I’ve said this before, but I’ll repeat. Satan can use just about anything good and distort into some sick thing (sex into adultery, talent into pride, material goods into selfishness, etc) But just because Satan does this does not make the original, untainted gift (in this case…celebration over birthday) sinful by itself. The only way the gift becomes sinful is when other sins are drug into it (drinking, sex, greed, etc.) Without the presence of such behavior, there is nothing wrong with birthdays. (Even if people in the past have abused it!)

God is a reasonable God. "'Come now, let us reason together,' says the LORD. " (Isaiah 1:18) He does not condemn actions because of what they once used to be (pagan rituals) but because of what they are (can be innocent, can be sinful.) For God to condemn the celebration of birthdays, He would have to find sin in them (ie. drinking, sex, etc. at such celebrations)

If you don't mind...I think this will be my last post on the issue of birthdays/holidays. I enjoyed discussing this because I better understand the reasons behind not having such celebrations, but it seems like this discussion is going nowhere. I do look forward to discussing other jw beliefs that starryeyedgirl posted on the jw forum.

that's the thing, I'm trying to tell you what's sinful about b-days, I gave you what b-days are associated with (false religion and beliefs) and ex. in the bible, but no where in the Bible does is say celebrate birthdays! Everything we need to know is in the bible... But let me mediatate more on the subject, and i'll let you know, have you gone to www.watchtower.com yet? (Ps. since I'm still studying myself to become a JW maybe there is some info that I'm missed clued you out of, but you can also go on www.gurl.com, there is a shoutout for JW's, if you want...) But if I find any more info, or more evidence to support why b-days (holidays, etc.) aren't okay, then I'll let you know... But I hope this can make sense to you, and contribute to inclining your heart yo Jah. cuz you seem to put up an interest in the religion, are you interested? (I think you are, otherwise why would you be asking the quetions rite?) well g2g [gotta go] talk to ya soon, luv bye!
~Mela
Oh, and mela is only my nickname!

Maybe pagans used to celebrate birthdays, but does that mean birthdays are automatically evil? No! You must examine what something has come to be, not just how it has been.

quote:

---

Jesus Christ took no part in such celebrations, why should we?

---

Well, Jesus also never had sex. But there is no reason not to have sex (inside marriage.) Besides, there’s a lot of stuff we don’t know if Jesus ever did, we don't know if He ever did a cartwheel, ever rode a horse, ever swam. Yet this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do these things. Besides, why are you basing how you should act on a man you don’t believe is God?

quote:

---

Pharaoh hangs cupbearers as part of celebration

---

Actually, only one person was hanged, the chief baker (not the cupbearer), and the scripture is unclear on if the hanging was a part of the party or not, though we know that Pharaoh decided this at the party. We don’t know exactly why he was hanged, the scripture simply says that both the baker and cupbearer offended the pharaoh. The cupbearer, on the other hand, was pardoned at the party and returned to his position! God actually used this celebration to fulfill Joseph’s prophecy (dream interpretation)…which eventually worked to get Joseph out of prison!

I had a birthday “party” about a month ago. I got together some of my best friends, 6 or so. We all packed into my car and went to a theme restaurant downtown. It was the first time I had all my best friends together, as I have many different types of friends, (some from work, some from school, some from other schools, some from summer job, some from out of town, etc.) and there had never been an occasion that called for all of us to get together all at once. We had a lot of fun, and the restaurant was really cool. My friends gave things such as lotion, slippers, stuff for my newly decorated room, charms for my charm bracelet, etc. There was no alcohol consumed, no idol worship, nothing that I would have felt any shame for had Jesus been in visible, bodily form right there with me!

Mela, could you please tell me what was evil about this night? Enough about how others disobey God, let’s ignore the pagans and idolaters and non-Christians for now… tell me what was sinful about the specific night described above.

By: Twintron

Everything that is in the Bible is there for a reason. The only two accounts of a birthday celebration are at Gen. 40:20-22, where Pharaoh hangs cupbearers as part of celebration, and Matt. 14:6-10, where its Herod's birthday and one of his dancers were so good that he promised her anything in the world, and she asked for the head of John the Baptist for her mother. He granted her wish and God's servant, John the Baptizer was literally beheaded and his head was bought to the girls mother, Herodias, on a platter. Once again, EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS THERE FOR A REASON. Jehovah's Witnesses take note that God's Word reports unfavorably about birthday celebrations and so shun these. Also, birthday celebrations have pagan origins that lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering gifts, congrats, and celebrating, in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. Christians at that time rejected the practice as pagan custom down to the fourth century. The Greeks believed that candles on a cake endowed special magic that could bring good or bad wishes because the birthday was believed to bring the person closer to the spirit world. Besides, Jesus Christ took no part in such celebrations, why should we?=)

I view Christmas as a celebration of the day that God first entered his creation in human form. I don't celebrate it as the exact day of his birth, but I celebrate the fact that He was born in the first place!

The problem with Christmas is not so much that we practice it, but how we practice it. Not everybody abuses the meaning of the day...I for one do not "overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct" on Christmas. Giving gifts is not against Christian principles, either. Jesus was given "gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh." The problem starts when the holiday becomes solely about the gifts and people become selfish and greedy.

Here's the thing. It should be no surprise to you that Satan can use something with a seemingly innocent foundation and use it for his own desires. He has done this with every other good thing that God has created and given to us. Just think of how Satan has taken things meant to be innocent (family, love, sex, talent, intelligence, etc. etc. etc.) and twisted them into things that are not of God. Does this mean that we should completely abstain from anything that Satan can twist around and distort? Of course not, because he has done so to just about every gift of God! The trick is to make sure that he has not ruined God's gifts in your life. For example, sex is a gift of God. Yet Satan can use it and turn it into lust and promiscuity and immorality. We guard this gift of God by keeping it pure and not sucumbing to lust and immorality.

Holidays can be a gift from God...a day to celebrate things...a day to enjoy family and being together. Yes, Satan can turn these days into a celebration of gifts and material objects, but we don't have to allow him to do so!

There are many things wrong with holidays, just because one likes something it doesn't mean that it's right for one to practice it-ya know? Holidays don't play into the hands of God but Satan! Oh yeah, hi, i'm a Christian and I'm studying to become a Jehovah's Witness in the near future, but Satan uses the holidays as a way to lure ppl into worshiping him. Really that's what one is doing when they partake in things such as holidays! Servants of God love what is good. But they must also learn to hate what is bad. (Psalm 97:10) That means avoiding certain practices that God hates. And there are many practices.Holidays, many use the holidays as an excuse for: unity, getting together, diversity, tolerance, family and friends but is it really? FOr example a well known holiday that is coming up is Christmas: Some say Chirst was born on X-mas, which is why we celebrate it, but Christmas is not of divine appointment nor is it of New Testament Origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the Bible or any other source. Christmas giving-the exchanging of gifts, the spirit reflected in such gift giving does not bring real hapiness but it violates Christian prinicpals! At those found at Matthew 6:3, 4, and 2/ Corinthinas 9: 7.
Some believe that practicing the holidays honar Jesus, is that true? A person who really knows and loves Jehovah God does not feel that by shunning practices that honor fasle gods or that promote false hood he is in any way deprived of happiness. For example: Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman's home saying that they are there to celebrate his b-day. He does not like to see the ppl. overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there-except him! On top of that all, they pcik the b-day of one of the man's enemies as the date of the celebration. How would the man feel? Would you want to be a party to it? This is exactly what is being done by Christmas celebrations! Has anyone ever heard of The Devil; Satan, etc. Well he uses the holidays, religion, drugs, sex, as a way to lure ppl. into his political world of spiritism! He makes it look enjoyable but really whom are you worshiping? And YES all holidays orignate with false religion (Pagean) with started in Babylon!

You rely on teh founders to make your case for a christian basis. I've shown that whether or not they were religious, they never intended anything but a "strict wall of separation".

Christianity and paganism aren't the only two religions in this country. Regardless, even if they are there is a ethos of secularism in the law that means the nativity is not allowed.

You're wrong, you're wrong.

We're not recognizing the paganistic origins of Xmas. We don't pray to a pagan god or honor the solstice. Our symbols have been effectively secularized, something a supposed child of your god could never be.

There is now a seperation of church and state and has been such for most of the history of the US. The authors of the constitution endorsed it; it's really that simple.

"No establishment". My tax money can't be used to support your religion, that's state endorsed, that's compulsary religion. We use a different term now becasue it is clear and has become part of the lexicon.

Regardless of whether it exists word for word, it exists in spirit, in the intent of the amendment.

The lights put up have no religious significance are not intended as such. They are secular, a nativity scene is not.

The case dealing with is is Allegheny v. ACLU, with teh ACLU arguing on behalf of members of several religions about a public nativity scene and a menorah.

Dante, you STILL have not cited this "constitutional" clause where it specifically states a separation of church and state.

If Christmas, as you people have posted before, is celebrated by Christians, as well as pagans, then Nativity scenes should be allowed on government property.

Am I right? Am I right?

So if the paganistic christmas tree and lights and all this other decorative stuff can be allowed, then so should Nativity scenes.

Dante, no, this is PC and you know it - the politically correct, such as yourself, believe in this myth of a "separation of church and state."

There isn't a separation of church and state - how many times, how many times, how many TIMES must this be stated?

But anyway, back to the topic at hand. So if city and state office buildings have decorations and what not, then a Nativity scene could also be used.

I'm not saying it HAS to be used - I'm saying that this whole deal about the ACLU coming down hard for this "church/state" myth is completely ridiculous.

I'm confused, Joey. You seem to think that nativity scenes belong on government property because it is a religious symbol, when in fact this is the very reason that it doesn't belong there. Please explain.

What you're talking about is a political issue rather than a religious one.

Aside from that, getting rid of nativity scenes is a church/state issue, not a PC issue. It's not about being 'sensitive', it's about being constitutional. (The continuation of that discussion, can be found in the threads on the pledge and other topics, not here, this is about the religiosity of teh holidays, not the political nature of the US situation in reference to religion.)

Christmas, derives from the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, but what we celebrate is essentially X-mas, a secular (or pagan in origin) celebration involving rampant consumerism, trees, snow, festivities, and gift-giving. Those christians among us might also go to church or read stories or put up nativity scenes in their homes, but that isn't what we now celebrate.

Christmas is a misnomer when you talk about the Holiday season. Essentially we're celebrating a fat white guy in fur who gives us stuff, not a skinny Jew who started a religion.

It really isn't "your" holiday so much when it was neither created by christians nor even celebrated by all of them. It would probably be better to pick another day (I hear reports that Jesus was born sometime during the spring actually) and leave the pagans to themselves.

Santa is already secular in nature (he's obviously not going to church all night) and St. Nick never celebrated Christmas in the first place (it not being a real holiday then and all).

If you want to celebrate St. Nick or his spirit (however I doubt that would go over well do to it's very Catholic/Orthodox nature not being so keen to Protestants) that would be fine. So call the day St. Nick Day or something.

This specific day bears no significance to you and you shouldn’t be so reluctant to give it up.

You’re anti-PCness is more stifling and mean than any damage you could claim from those you accuse of being too-PC. You’re not the victim, you’re a whiner. You’re worse than the PC people. The Grinch who stole X-mas…

Happy Holidays All.

Yes, Christmas is a Chrisitan holiday. BUT it WAS originally a pagan holiday. The name CHRISTmas obviously isn't pagan, but the time of Christmas, and the first ideas of it were.

Winter solscitce is on the 21. Most Pagan beliefs celebrate that day. The 22 is the day when the Sun god is supposed to be reborn. Christians decided to use that day because then more people would be more likely to get used to celebrating it. (Jesus is actually believed to have ben born some time in September)

Yes, the name and the thought of 'Christmas' is meant to invoke Jesus's birth and all, BUT the originality of the date and the architypes of the Tree and what not were PAGAN. SO, by putting a Nativity scene on the lawn on of a building which has nothing to do with Christianity, you are being unfair to all of the other Religious beliefs who's Holidays occur around the same time. To put a Nativity scene, you would also need to put a Star of David, and why don't you add a pentacle at that?

There is nothing wrong with expressing your religious feelings on the property of a Church or what not, or on the home of a person who believes that religion.

BUT I know that if I went and started putting Pagan decorations on Libraries, Banks, and Buisness building's lawns, more than a few people would be angry/offended, so Don't do it to the rest of us.

The time of 'Christmas' is not only reserved for Christians.

~Becca

Jade, I'm not saying others can't celebrate Christmas, but don't ***** and complain when you see a Nativity scene - that's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, the tree, the ornaments, the lighting ...all that is pagan, but it's also a time when Christians celebrate the "birth" of Christ ...

And we should be able to do it without the politically correct sewage seeping into the holiday.

That's all I'm trying to say.

Santa was originally called St. Nick, thanks.