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Originally posted by DrStrangelove:
Seeing how both turn into huge beurocratic dictatorships in the end, it's all the same. if you depend on everything from a few large corporations, what's the difference from depending on a few large government agencies?

While it may appear so on the outside, they are very different.

Corporations function on profit margins, governments do not. That means that if businesses cannot make money they will go out of business. If governments cannot manage money, they just raise taxes.

sure, america has a long history of protecting the freedom inside the country. but it is getting more and more corrupt as laws are passed regarding religious organizations, and free speech and freedom of expression will only protect you so far today. im not talking about freedom of expressing yourself by killing someone, but even something as simple as a dress code is a complete violation of the first ammedment.

An interesting post strangelove, a post ive been waiting for from this thread.

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And as to why I'm patriotic? Because, quite simply, I beleive the general ideas and freedoms this country was founded on are the best thing to come to humanity so far. I've been routinely disturbed by the mindsets of many Europeans I've talked to.

the thoughts and beliefs of Europeans change rapidly depending on current given situations. The ideas of freedom and liberalism had long been in existence and American liberal democracy is just an old idea in new wrapping paper.

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but this was the first time I actually saw someone act like the government banning a film or song was a normal occurance.

this is a shock to me, the press is free, the press enjoy greater freedom in the UK than in any other country worldwide. The idea of government banning a documentory or book or whatever is something which would cause great controversey and would be totally unacceptable to the people of Britain.

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In the American mindset, the bill of rights, freedom, and for the most part equality has been burnt into the personalities of every native citizen. Europeans and those from other countries seem a bit alien, a bit off, and off in a bad way. They're not evil empires, they're not dictatorships, but they aren't American, and they don't hold the same concept of a liberal democracy as we do.

one thing that annoys me is people speaking of Europe as a whole, there are a lot of similarities, especially between nations such as france and germany and italy, but please do not liken us to the Europeans on every aspect, we are very different, have different morals, standards and the culture gap is vast. As for what we are proud of, politics never comes up because we never knew any different, for hundreds of years our government has been relatvley stable, no revolution, no major corruption, its a system that wouldnt run if it were not for the British people accepting it for what it is, and taking such a stable and democratic environment for granted. What we are (well most of us) proud of is the multi-culturalism we have gained as a result of our Empire, it's fantastic to walk down the street and see hundreds of different types of people, from all over the world, every corner of the world mixing together and participating in the running of this country whether politically or economically, we are all very proud to be part of a country which holds equality above everything else. The problem is, we get people becoming almost global citizens in mentality and worryingly carung less about our nation, however we still protect it fiercely from the onslaught of the EU which looks to erode our sovereignty.

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U-571 and the Patriot are most definitely not the first time stories have been reworked to favor those who are making them.

but its the 1st time such stories have been transmitted round the world to a global audience. Systematically destroying our place in history.

I hate the way we are portrayed as the bad guys of the american war of independance.

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Originally posted by reactionary05:
Who is to say? I'd rather have the country run by Big Business than Big Government.

Seeing how both turn into huge beurocratic dictatorships in the end, it's all the same. if you depend on everything from a few large corporations, what's the difference from depending on a few large government agencies?

And as to the original question: America is a massive country, with so much good in it. Granted there are problem areas, there always have been. But basically we've been on the upswing ever since our Civil War. We're the top dog right now and that tends to spur huge amounts of pride in the common population. I garuntee you if you went back to Britain during the hieght of it's colonial power, you'd find similar sentiments. It's true of any massive power.

And as to why I'm patriotic? Because, quite simply, I beleive the general ideas and freedoms this country was founded on are the best thing to come to humanity so far. I've been routinely disturbed by the mindsets of many Europeans I've talked to.

For example, on my recent trip to England I was working with several grad students from Plymouth U. I got into a dicussion much like this one, about American patriotism and whatnot. Eventually the subject of Farhenhiet 9/11 came up (inevitably). They were surprised to know that I saw it and that it was a fairly widely viewed film over here in the US. They were under the impression that the film had been banned by the government. Now I've delt with a lot of people over the interenet and in short confrontations, but this was the first time I actually saw someone act like the government banning a film or song was a normal occurance. The concept was alien to me.

In the American mindset, the bill of rights, freedom, and for the most part equality has been burnt into the personalities of every native citizen. Europeans and those from other countries seem a bit alien, a bit off, and off in a bad way. They're not evil empires, they're not dictatorships, but they aren't American, and they don't hold the same concept of a liberal democracy as we do. If you love what your country is, and other cultures have philosophies that contradict yours, the natural reaction is love for your homeland. Now granted, there will always be those who blindly repeat the party line in ANY system.

Therefore, I think that the reason we have this strong nationalism in America is partly because there have been groups here who keep telling us how great Europe or Canada is, and how we should be more like them, etc. Well if you disagree, your reaction is going to move towards nationalism. So this raging nationalism in America is a result of the raging anti-American sentiment both here and especially abroad.

As for propaganda, this is a result of this American/Anti-American divide. Humanity, with it's wonderfully tribal nature, tends to do things like this. It happens all over the place, and it's not surprising. U-571 and the Patriot are most definitely not the first time stories have been reworked to favor those who are making them.

So American aggression was formed out of trying to break free from the control of an Empire? why are you all so hateful of the terrorists in the middle east who are trying to do exactly the same thing then? hypocrits.

the root of america's aggression is from when it had to break free of England. it was founded by aggressive people who had to fight for their freedom, and is composed of the poor of other countries who moved here to fight for a better life.

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Originally posted by CelticNewAger:
But also in the end you have to realize that these are not part of the American government and will not carry your country on their shoulders forever.

Who is to say? I'd rather have the country run by Big Business than Big Government.

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American corporations help feed and shelter people abroad while making America the most powerful economic conglomerate in the world

That is falling. In the end, you have to thank the American corporations, McD's and Walmart for example, for bringing you up. But also in the end you have to realize that these are not part of the American government and will not carry your country on their shoulders forever.

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not really. An empire is usually brought under the rule of the Emporer through conquest of neighboring kingdoms and independent states.

I know, but riskbreaker said an empire is "An empire (also known technically, abstractly or disparagingly as an imperium, and with powers known among Romans as "imperium") comprises a set of regions locally ruled by governors, viceroys or client kings in the name of an emperor. By extension, one could classify as an empire any large, multi-ethnic state ruled from a single center. Like other states, an empire maintains its political structure at least partly by coercion." To me, Canada and France fit that definition, as do most countries.

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Originally posted by bluedemocrat:
So the country, itself is an empire? Then Isn't Mexico an empire and France as well?

not really. An empire is usually brought under the rule of the Emporer through conquest of neighboring kingdoms and independent states.

And the gap between rich and poor widens, the gap between north and south is vaster than ever and millions of people have become dependant on American companies to pay their tiny pitance with no hope of prosperity for their children.....Capitalism works fine and well for everybody on the right side of it. Not that i'm blaming capitalism as such..i mean TINA. But greedy westerners and fat cats are suffering at the hands of western and mainly American corporate imperialism.

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Originally posted by CelticNewAger:
Economic imperialism is what I meant, to be specific. I'm not accusing you on going on some sort of medieval land hunt.

Is it not in our best interest to expand our economic reach across the world? American corporations help feed and shelter people abroad while making America the most powerful economic conglomerate in the world. It is for these reasons that Americans can afford to help impoverished people around the world. The United Nations, who routinely spits on American's image abroad, depends on 20% of its funds from the United States, alone.

Its highlighting the ambiguity of definitions of empire.

So the country, itself is an empire? Then Isn't Mexico an empire and France as well?

"An empire (also known technically, abstractly or disparagingly as an imperium, and with powers known among Romans as "imperium") comprises a set of regions locally ruled by governors, viceroys or client kings in the name of an emperor. By extension, one could classify as an empire any large, multi-ethnic state ruled from a single center. Like other states, an empire maintains its political structure at least partly by coercion."


Sounds rather like the American federal system to me.

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What about the American annexation of the phillipines? or the territorial expansion into West America? it wasn't so long ago, but it was Jefferson who claimed America would be the greatest Empire the world ever saw.

That was during the McKinley administration I believe. That was a long time ago.

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Empires invade and annex land. America does not.

What about the American annexation of the phillipines? or the territorial expansion into West America? it wasn't so long ago, but it was Jefferson who claimed America would be the greatest Empire the world ever saw.

I do believe that America is a great country. America has enabled my family to suceed. My ancestors were persecuted in Russia because they were Jewish. They had little money and nearly no prospects. When they came to America, they were able to excel and suceed. My grandfather won a Nobel Prize. A few generations back he would have been a poor, persecuted fur trader. I owe so much to this country. Even though I don't agree with the current president, I almost have to love this country. Without this country, I would be the daughter of a poor Russian fur trader.

I used to think that America was the greatest country in the world. However, I don't think that there is a "best" country. America is great in some areas, but lacking in others.

Economic imperialism is what I meant, to be specific. I'm not accusing you on going on some sort of medieval land hunt.

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Originally posted by CelticNewAger:

quote:

Empires invade and annex land. America does not.

You're not stupid enough to not know what I meant.

Empire (n) A political unit composed of numerous territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
America is not annexing territories and growing our borders. Economic and cultural imperialism could be argued, I grant you that, but not an empire.