There has been heated debate over the Allah and God deal, and the truth of the matter is ...


God is God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Allah is only one god.

In fact, Muslims believe it is a deadly sin to even CONSIDER Allah as having a son.

The church pages in the paper I write for always provide me with informative answers to some of the questions I have and I have quoted some things from one Dalen Garris:


"Either there is one way, or we all get to pick whatever [religious] path we want.

"If the latter is the case, then the Bible is not the Word of God, and nothing is true. Nothing matters if that is the case, so who cares anymore?

"If, however, the Bible is the inspired Word of God, then Islam is not, and the
god that they purport to worship is an imitation of the real thing.

"That being said, there is one other point to remember.


"No other religion or belief system can boast of the Spirit and power of God except for the
Gospel."

Other commentary, etc.
http://www.elliscountypress.com


"Another thing, only the Blood of Jesus Christ can atone for sin.

"There has to be a blood atonement -- the wages of sin is death. Without that we are still in our sins and destined for Judgment.

"Now, remember, Islam proscribes to the Bible as being true, but preceeding the Koran. So what
happened to their blood atonement?

"Hmmmm. They've been tricked into
thinking that their works of worship will be enough to get them to Heaven,
but there's nothing to pay for sin."


Allah might "mean" God in some other langauge, but it's not the TRUE God as described in the Bible. Thus two different religious faiths.



joeydauben@hotmail.com
AIM: joey75154
http://www.joeydauben.com

Joey, i've gotta say this:Your making me unbelivabley mad! Okay,i know that this is a pointless fight 'cause it can go on until the end of the world so instead of fighting, i think i will just enlighten you a little bit, okay?

So, first off i wanna say that yes Allah and God are indeed, one in the same. Allah literaly means GOD in Arabic.Example: I have a very good friend who speaks arabic and is christian and when at home talking with her family in arabic she uses the word Allah, meaning God, and like you joey, when saying god she means Jesus Christ. I hope you get the picture, now.

Secondly, Do you honestly believe that those who don't believe in, like you said, "only Truth there is", oh i mean your only truth, is going to "hell". Joey, there are so many other religions out there with so many people following them, so do you believe that "God"(meaning the one you believe in which I respect intirely, though i don't belive in him), as loving as he is would send that many people to hell, no matter how good of a person they might be, just because they didn't believe in him!I would like to think not.


Thirdly, Joey, I don't think you relize this, but Jesus Christ is part of the Islamic religion! Jesus was a prophet, like Muhammed, only jesus wasn't the last prophet like Muhammed.

Lastley Joey, I would like to know your thoughts on what God will do with the people,on the day of Judgment, that lived way BEFORE jesus Christ was even born. Or how about jewish people back then, and now?

I am positive that I forgot things, but I hope you get my picture. It really amazes me how closed minded people can be!

It's also a historical fact that Jesus Christ himself is NOT a historical fact.

The truth, Joey, is that I respect you standing up for what you believe in, much as I disagree with you. But you will not back down, and neither will the people opposing you, and so it is a pointless argument full of insults. People trying to make points that are null because they will be ignored no matter their validity. Basically, I'm tired of arguing with people who I'm just never going to find a middle ground with. O'course it is after three in the morning right now which could have something to do with it. And I don't know if anyone agrees with me. But what is the point of arguing anymore? Everyone has made their points, and the stalemate is staring us straight in the face. Can we accept that? I'm not telling you to lay down your sword - maybe I was 12 hours ago, but I'm just saying perhaps you should engage it in a more profitable fight. Eh?

Hm, your use of the word "girls" feels offensive, perhaps because you seem like the type of person who think girls are not as good as boys, and perhaps because I hear an (intentionally or not) implied "little." Maybe it's just me. But from your posts, I have picked up a general tone, and when applied in those paragraphs, it sounds as though you are attempting to belittle us. I sincerely apologize if you weren't, but that is the result of your previous insults.

Do you post on the animal rights board? Because that is where I intend to go next, but I don't exactly feel like arguing with you about anything anymore; it's too predictable.

I know this is random, but for some reason I'm wondering, do you have a job? And I'm wondering what it is. Oh and did you go to a private or public school? I guess you don't have to say, but I'm just trying to piece you together a bit more. After all, people do seem to be largely a product of their environment.

It's funny, because you'd think I would hate you. Well, if I was you, or someone, I don't know, I might. But I don't actually find myself disliking you. Maybe because I have a really nice friend who shares your religious beliefs (heh, yes, I have friends(one or two) who seem to believe I am going to hell... hm). You're probably a nice person... and you are confident in your beliefs, and, to some extent, informed - though the truth is, often one-sidedly, but aren't we all?

I should have stopped talking after the first paragraph, but when I'm writing I always put down every single thing that pops into my head. Forgive me.

Bye!

And Solemn, no, I didn't know how Allah came to be or whatever.

But it's also a historical fact that Muhammed ran around with an army, actually fighting people to get his views out.

Jesus Christ is about peace and the early origins of Islam, if I've read correctly, were about force and fighting all the time.

Well, I posted that on Oct. 5, which was a looong time ago.

I haven't been going around condemning people's religions lately, but I will respond.


So in other words, girls, you're saying that I should stop being so close minded and mean, and stop offending someone with my views?

So in other words, girls, I should take the politically correct stance and lessen the sharpness of God's Word?

Well, in case you haven't figured it out, I do not believe in being PC; you can call me mean, arrogant all you want, but you're just making it that much more difficult for someone else in trying to hold on to their views.

I'm not going to lay down my sword - I'm going to keep fighting and what you're doing is trying to get me to compromise my beliefs, so that you won't feel "bashed" or so that I won't sound like I'm "closed minded."

Tell your PC friends that it's not going to work with me.


"No other religion or belief system can boast of the Spirit and power of God except for the
Gospel."

This means that every true Christian, who believes that God had a Son, and that Son (Jesus) died on the Cross for our sins and after we accept that fact, that bone-chilling, awesome fact, that we are induced with the Spirit of God.

Like the quote says, there's no other religion that can boast of a Spirit of God actually entering into one's soul and body and completely transforming it.

Jesus Christ lived, died for me and is coming back to get his People.

It is true that the Muslims do think it a sin to say that Allah has a son. But, do you know how the belief in Allah came to be?

It is said that Muhammad went out to the desert to meditate. The Angel Gabriel came down and told Muhammad that he must recite what the angel was about to say. Muhammad kept telling the angel that he could not write, but the angel kept persisting. All of a sudden Muhammad was filled with an extraordinary power to write. He went back to his wife Kadijah and told her what had happened. Muhammad and his wife became the first converts to Islam, and Muhammad kept in his pursuit to make others believe...

If you insist on getting information from Christians and Christians only, you are only getting a one-sided opinion.

Yours,
Solemn

I don't believe in Hell, I don't even believe entirely in God. Don't try to convince me otherwise, I've seen the truth of the matter. A religion is just a religion, and it can't prove its own correctness (so don't quote the Bible). Yes a lot of the things it (the bible) teaches are great, but can't you accept that everyone has different beliefs and that they might be just as right as yours?????

"No other religion or belief system can boast of the Spirit and power of God except for the
Gospel." What is that supposed to mean? It sounds... well, wrong. Or is it literally saying that christianity is the only boastful religion? In which case, that probably would not be a good thing.

Basically, your (and other super-christians') closemindedness and self-importance is annoying! Not to mention completely unfounded. The Christianity I was raised in did not believe in the whole blood atonement thing or that if you don't believe in JC you're going to Hell. Do you believe that? People who do everything good that they can, are the best people they can be, are going to hell for not believing something? Excuse me, but BS. That belief just makes me mad. I really hope you at least don't hold that belief. That people should be punished for (if Christianity really is the truth as you believe) simply ignorance.

Hmm now I've read more of the posts on the message board, I have to conclude that it's a fairly pointless argument. Who cares, anyway. Okay, I do. But Who Cares what Joey thinks? He's ONE person.

Ooh, sorry. That was mean.

But back to my point. How can any of us not be ignorant? What right do we have to claim non-ignorance? How do you know that the Bible is more God-inspired than the other existing holy books? People believe in their religions as fervently as you do in yours. I don't understand where you get the gall to assert that they are wrong. I was taught, and I actually still believe, that there is some truth in every religion, that none is perfect, that it's all a little distorted perhaps. (Of course they went on to say that this didn't apply to their religion (then mine) but other than that, it was a valid point I think.)

Birdy, I'm not "condemning" you, but rather injecting the real Truth in what I'm about to say.

When you call yourself a Christian, then state that you believe God also "became" Allah, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Great Spirit, etc., then you have distorted the Biblical Christian message.


Again, I do this not to "bash" you, but for you to see the Truth.

You also said that you cannot agree with the Christian view of Hell; correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't believe in a Hell?

Well, again, I point to many verses throughout the Old and New Testament of the Christian Bible as proof that there is a Hell - to disprove, or to completely ignore it is not being a "Christian."

Jesus said that only He was the truth and the life and that He is the only way to salvation and to Heaven.

The ones who do not believe that - according to the Christian Bible -- will be damned to eternal torment - which, again, is in Hell.

Thank you Joey.

Birdy, Buddhism doesn't have a "god".

Dante, I'm not apologizing for saying what I said, just how I said it.

But I will research some more; you've done your homework it looks like, but unfortunately the Word hasn't been powerful enough for you to truly See - but hey, you (me) gotta have faith - and be patient too.


Birdy, I had no right to condemn you for your beliefs.


"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you."
- Luke 6:28

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."

- Luke 6:37

"Many will question, many will doubt, but most will be deceived."

The first post of mine was accidentally posted because Dummy here hit the Post Now button instead of revising the topic. Read the second one and disregard the first.

Peace,

Birdy

I may have different beliefs than you, Joey, but I have never been stronger in MY faith than I am now. Maybe you need to learn that everybody looks upon God differently. Christians call our God 'God'. I believe Islam and Hindu and Buddhist religions---all religions, really--- look upon the SAME God as Christians do, only they call Him by a different name. Get out of your little bubble, Joey, and explore. Get out of your little fundamentalist- Christian, intolerant, condemning little bubble and think about what these other religions have to offer. I personally am Christian until/unless I find another religion that more closely meshes with what my heart tells me is right morally, socially, and ethically. I do not conform to a religion; the religion conforms to me. We as a people should not define our beliefs by our religion, but rather our religion by our beliefs. (Example: Instead of "I'm Christian, so I believe everything in the Bible," say "I agree with the Bible, so I suppose that means I am Christian.") That's the way I see it, and it seems to work pretty well for me. Your way, and others' ways, may be different. Different, but not wrong in any sense. What's right for me may not be right for you. Saying everyone should believe a certain way to be 'saved', and that other religions are 'unrighteous' is like saying everyone should fit a size 6 to be considered 'sexy' or 'beautiful', and all other sizes are considered 'unhealthy'. You see how much BS that sounds like when I put it in those terms?

However, thank you for being respectful of my views. You seem to have learned something from my previous rants... But I disagree with you about me being shaky on my beliefs. I may disagree about your beliefs, Joey, but these are mine, and I stand on them as strong as I stand on a stage and sing before a crowd of 1,000 people. *I don't just believe for nothing, and neither does the rest of the world who happens to disagree with the immortal words of JoeyDauben.* (The starred sentence is to be taken lightly, so no offense is meant.)

I hope you take away an understanding of my beliefs, and maybe even gather some things to think about. I respect your beliefs as well, Joey, but LORDY, have you got the condemning routine down pat!

Peace,

Birdy

I may have different beliefs than you, Joey, but I have never been stronger in MY faith than I am now. Maybe you need to learn that everybody looks upon God differently. Christians call our God 'God'. I believe Islam and Hindu and Buddhist religions look upon the SAME God as Christians do, only they call Him by a different name. Get out of your little bubble, Joey, and explore. Get out of your little fundamentalist- Christian, intolerant, condemning little bubble and think about what these other religions have to offer. I personally am Christian until/unless I find another religion that more closely meshes with what my heart tells me is right morally, socially, and ethically. I do not conform to a religion; the religion conforms to me. We as a people should not define our beliefs by our religion, but rather our religion by our beliefs. That's the way I see it, and it seems to work pretty well for me. Your way, and others' ways, may be different. Different, but not wrong in any sense. What's right for me may not be right for you. Saying everyone should believe a certain way to be 'saved', and that other religions are 'unrighteous' is like saying everyone should fit a size 6 to be considered 'sexy' or 'beautiful', and all other sizes are considered 'unhealthy'. You see how much BS that sounds like when I put it in those terms?

However, thank you for being respectful of my views. You seem to have learned something from my previous rants... But you, my friend, are just plain f***ing wrong about me being shaky on my beliefs. I may disagree about your beliefs, Joey, but these are mine, and I stand on them as strong as I stand on a stage and sing before a crowd of 1,000 people. *I don't just believe for nothing, and neither does the rest of the world who happens to disagree with the immortal words of JoeyDauben.* (Starred paragraph is to be taken lightly, so no offense is meant)

I hope you take away an understanding of my beliefs, and maybe even gather some things to think about. I respect your beliefs as well, Joey, but LORDY, have you got the condemning routine down pat!

Peace,

Birdy

quote:

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Dante, by your ignorant "logic" the Bible doesn't state anything about Jesus in the Old Testament.

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Actually, you too admitted tehre was no mention on Jesus anywhere but in the New Testament. It's in the Evolution vs Creation thread. It reads: "Throughout the Bible you have all sorts of names, yet I haven't come across one other Jesus."
We agree on this much.

quote:

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However, if you turned that ignorance into something useful, like um, intelligience,

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ooooo, snappy, witty, intelligent..yet not. If tehre was any logic whatsoever to this instead of pithy insults we might get somewhere.

quote:

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you would know that since God and Jesus are the same One, then in fact, Jesus was mentioned in the Old Testament, but like the Good Book says, there are many names for God.

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Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God." (Jesus is separate form God) and Genesis 18:14, Exodus 5:2, 6:3, 15:3, 20:7, 34:6, Leviticus 19:2, Deuteronomy 4:24, 6:5, 10:17, Isaiah 2:6, 16:7, 17:47, Nehemiah 4:14, Psalm 3:8, and Jeremiah 10:10 where it clearly states God is one alone.
Given your logic, if Jesus can be implicitly part of God in teh Old testament, then it can just as well stand to reason that it is implicit in the Quaran as well.
I stand by my original post.

quote:

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It's so refreshing to hear people speak about subjects they have no clue about.

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Funny, I was about to say the same thing.
Just because I don't follow the book's teachings now doesn't mean I never have. Nor does it mean I haven't read it, and it especially doesn't mean I don't know aanything about it.
It is the man who thinks he knows by birthright who ends up in folly.

quote:

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I'll gladly go to hell for treating everyone with respect instead of denouncing them as wrong.

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You can believe/state that somebody is wrong and still respect them and their beliefs.

I would just like to apologize to all of the Muslims reading this debate. In fact, anyone of any other religious tradition than the Judeo/Christian tradition deserves an apology. I am exceedingly sorry that your beliefs are being trampled on on this page, you don't deserve it. In fact, those of you who are in the Judeo/Christian traditions, I'm very sorry whenever your beliefs are being trampled on too. No one has the right to trample on anyone else's beliefs, NO ONE. Oh, am I going to Hell for that? Oh well. I'll gladly go to hell for treating everyone with respect instead of denouncing them as wrong. But my first task here is to apologize to all of you, because you don't deserve this, on behalf of all of us who have kept out of this debate because we don't think it's right to degrade anyone because of their beliefs.

Stop using 'pagan' as a term for something bad. I don't use the word 'Christian' to describe someone as an idiot, so you should not use the term 'pagan' to describe something as evil.

That's all I'm going to say.

~Becca

Birdy, I liked your theory up until a point;

True, when God created everything and the human race, He also allowed them to have the free will and the right to choose which "path" to take - either a righteous path or an unrighteous path.

So yeah, out of One true and Holy God, many of the world's other false religions came into existence (with, of course, help from Satan).

Now, the part of the theory where I will disagree with you on is this:

"God also became Allah, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Great Spirit, Mannitou, and many other things to many different people."

Christians believe in God as being the Father, Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit - many names for Him, and in three forms, but all One.

So to say that God also became those false idols would be (according to the Bible) heresy at the highest.

If there is no Hell or no Heaven, then there obviously isn't a Truth - I mean, if we're all going to go to Paradise, or live in another life as someone else, or just turn to dust, why then are we even here? Why are you and the people of YouthNOISE even having this discussion?

Hell isn't some made-up, imaginary fairy land. It's for the people who don't take the only Truth there is.

Sure, those religions might say they find proof in the different doctrines, but there is only ONE truth and that is the Truth of Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords, King of Kings.

God is above all other "gods."

To call other religions false or pagan is not unChristian - it's the truth.

I stand by the Truth and the Truth in facts is that if you don't know the Truth, then you suffer in eternal torment - that's not from me, that's from the Bible - the God-directed Book of Truth.

And besides, God will not throw you into Hell after forgiving you - in fact, that's the entire reason for forgiveness - is to save you from the flames and demons of Hell.

Birdy, I respect your views, but you're shaky on some of your beliefs.

http://www.joeydauben.com/Pray.htm

I personally believe that all religions branched off from one act or one person. (Since I am a Christian, I would see that one person as Jesus Christ and that one act as being done by Christ. Others might see it differently.) However, human populations grew and spread to all the continents, and different languages, customs, and rituals (i.e., cultures) were created. I believe that as this process occurred, God also became Allah, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Great Spirit, Mannitou, and many other things to many different people.

I also believe (perhaps these are contradictory beliefs...I don't know, I just go with what my ol' ticker tells me) that every religion has its own reward place (like Heaven). The point I differ on in Christian religion is that Hell exists. It just sounds like some kind of sadist-masochist idea that somebody cooked up and thought it would be good to put in the Bible when they rewrote it. I mean, if God has unconditional love, and will forgive us, why would He send us to Hell afterwards? "Hey, you know, I forgive you, but you still have to go to Hell for a while. Sorry, kid, but better luck next time around." Tch! (That was a satirical look at it...no offense meant.)

Aaaanyway...I think all of us can be right. I mean, people just don't dedicate their lives to a religion for nothing, now do they? Christian religion has just as much proof of our God as Islam religion has of Allah, and just as much proof exists for the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva (actually all the same guy----JUST LIKE the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in Christianity...!). Even the Native American tribes have just as much proof about their Great Spirit and/or Mannitou as we all do. We're all relying on legends, old books, and eyewitness accounts. No one religion can call another religion pagan or say definitively that that religion is going to Hell. To say so is an unChristian thing to do, in my opinion. Jesus said, "Love thy brethren." If He meant, "Love thy brethren, all but the people who don't agree with you on religion. Oh, and make sure to tell them they're all going to Hell, too," He would have said so.

Peace,

Birdy