Britain's Tony Blair is calling for a European Union "super-president" --- if one were to thumb through the Bible ever, you'd know that the Antichrist rises out of a group of 10 nations resembling the revived Roman Empire (EU is based out of Brussels, but covers areas such as Rome/The Vatican).

Why is this important?

Well, millions of Christians think they're just going to be "raptured" out of this world before the Antichrist brings in destruction and mayhem - the big word is "think."

The Antichrist will sign a peace contract with Israel for seven years, then break it off after 3 1/2 - after the 3 1/2 years, all hell breaks lose --- biggest trouble the entire world has EVER seen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$ZWA4IF5D4XV0LQFIQMGCFFWAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2003/03/01/weuro01.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/01/ixnewstop.html

I'm not saying Blair is the Antichrist and I'm not saying the Antichrist is in power (we would all know he was in power if he was), but something like this needs to be taken into account and watched very closely.


Questions/comments:

AIM: joey75154
ICQ: 288077501
joeydauben@hotmail.com
http://www.joeydauben.com

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- Full command of North Atlantic Treaty Organization. [Note: Rev. 13:1 describes a "beast" coming out of the sea of Gentile nations with seven heads and 10 horns - NATO consists of ocean-fronting, Gentile countries]

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Not seeing "Gentile sea", thus no "Gentile nations" connection.

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G-7 Industrial Nations [Note: Rev. 13:1 describes the Antichrist arising out of a "sea" having seven heads and 10 horns --- the image Daniel saw!]
1. G-7 include: United States, Italy, France, Germany, Japan, Great Britain, Canada [Note: Rev. 13:1 - sea having SEVEN heads]

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It's officially the G-8 now.

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2. During End Times, final world government will be made via ECONOMIC means - the seven countries mentioned above are economic superpowers!

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Looking for scripture quotes on this one...needs backing-up.

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- Debate has been centered on the "revised Roman Empire" not mentioned specifically in the Bible
- 1957 --- European Union created with the signing of the TREATY OF ROME

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Can you see the contradiction here? You put "Rome" in all caps as if that meant something but immediately preceeding it's admitted that means nothing becasuse there's no Biblical basis for caring about Rome.

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4. One army (NATO)

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1. If all these things are really the goals of teh EU I'd like to see some sort of proof. Your asserting that these are indeed its goals is not enough.
2. Not all EU countries are NATO countries, not all NATO countries are EU countries.
3. This is the third international organization (G-7 (8), EU, NATO) you've tried to fit into all of this. And there are more you use later. Stick to one or find proof that the Bible allows for this sort of leeway in what from and where the apocalypse is originating. Grabbing everything with a hint of multi-nationalism just to fit your interpretation isn't kosher.
Either the scriptue fits or it doesn't. Don't force it.

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- Present-day Belgium, Luxemborg, The Netherlands (Holland) were captured and placed into the Roman Empire by war in 58 B.C.

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A good argument that the prophesy describes the ancient past, not future.
Additionally, the Roman Empire conquered much more than these three places (that weren't even proper nations at that point). It only has significance to us now because in our present mind they are nations on land that was once conquered. It's seriously dementing history and the present to fit into a preconcieved notion of what the scripture means.

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- "Revived" in 1948 - members of the countries held summit to create the beginnings of the European Union

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Again with this "revived" stuff? I thought we went over this already...

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- Final leader of final three nations of EU will have much power over the rest
[Note: Spain and Austria were two of the last three admitted to the EU; both countries have top leaders descending from Roman Empire leaders!]

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Since the Roman Empire doesn't matter to any of this then that is a useless statement, however I would like to see the geneology on that one, since we're about 2000 years past that now.
Also, being Europe and all, I would assume the vast majority of people there are decendants of former memers of the Roman Empire, most Americans too. I would venture as well that given the nature of geneology most people have some remote connection to a leader or former ruler of the Roman Empire. This far down the road we're all related when you take it way back then.
Furthermore, 10 nations are set to join the EU in the next few years. Regardless of trying to find out who then would be the "last three" it would be adding nations that actually might not be decended from Roman Empire royalty, if that even mattered.

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- Little "horn" in Revelation will break 10 members in "pieces" [Note: Daniel 2:34 mentions the Antichrist as a "stone" that breaks the iron and clay toes (10 toes) to pieces]

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Nope. I've already talked about the Daniel verse.

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[Side note: Daniel 2:34 also references to Dan. 8:25, the verse describing the Antichrist! And Rev. 13:1 references back to Dan. 8:25!]

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Wow, Daniel self-references, imagine that.
I don't know what you're seeing in 8:25 that refrences either of the other verses though...

just as one thing im a christian. so i know the rapture is comming and im not dobuting what you belive and i would like more scripture to go with what you say. the faith is cut among the 3 belifs. belief one is that we will be raptured before the end days. Belief two is that we will be raptured in the middle of the 7 years, soo we will go 3 1/2 years then be raptured. Belief three is that we will be raptured after the glorious appearing. as a chrisian i belive that me and the rest of the curch will be raptured before hand.

God says over and over again in the holy word that he loves us and that "I Am with you and will watch over you whereever you go" Genesis 28:15 And since he loves us so much that he wouldn't put us through that. Im asking any of you that are christians to say thsi small prayer. all is takes is one minute of your time and youll have eternity to be free.

Dear Father in Heaven,

I know that i have sinned. I know that your son died for me. I have prepared a place for you in my heart. Im ready to go to heaven. i want to be protected from evil. Soo save me.

If you said this prayer email me so that i can pray for you and give you scripture to start off your journey to the faith.

kirby
Krider830@aol.com


Ruch Community Bible Curch
144 Upper Applegate Rd
Jacksonville Or 97530
899-9144

[This message was edited by YNLissa on March 10, 2003 at 12:56 PM.]

Again, not to quibble but...:

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Unlocking the mysteries
Well, I prayed for wisdom and understanding of the End Times.
Here is what I have gotten thus far:
(Note: like I've said before, you must understand Daniel to understand Revelation)

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You prayed for wisdom and got book notes?

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d. Iron legs = Roman Empire "breaks in pieces" (Dan. 2:40).

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In the context of the passage, what he was saying is that the Iron (kingdom) will smash everything to pieces, not that it gets smashed to pieces.

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Two legs represent the two headquarters of the Roman Empire. Holy Roman Empire suffered defeat via internal corruption [Note: Roman Empire was not fully defeated, making the toes of clay and iron an "extension" of the Roman Empire, or a "revived" R.E.]

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Nope. As noted before, the passage doesn't detail any smashing let alone an incomplete destruction.
Also, it clearly states that what siginifies the "divided empire" is the mixture of iron and clay (2:41), not that it has two legs.
Mentioning H.R.E. as it is, as Coffee Talk so eloquently put it, neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire is puzzling. How that fits into this, I don't understand.

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e. Toes shall be "partly broken and partly strong" (Dan. 2:42)

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I have "brittle", not "broken", which seems to fit more when discussing the nature of the material (clay and iron).

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f. God shall set up a kingdom in the last days (Dan. 2:44) and the stone (Antichrist) shall break the kingdoms of clay, silver, gold. Gold made known to the king what shall come to passand the "dream is certain" (Dan. 2:45).

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1. "In the time of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed". Seemingly those kingdoms happened long before the "last days" (assuming the last days haven't happened already). So where one gets this time frame I don't know.
2. Absolutely no mention of the Antichrist whatsoever. Nope, nada, nothing.
a. That's blasphemy, but maybe just ignorance. Here's why: It is God who destroys the kingdoms. To attribute the work of God to the Antichrist to try to prove a point...bad. And I hope you realize the absurdity of saying the Antichrist (who doesn't exist yet) destroyed these ancient kingdoms.

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II. Daniel's vision of the four beasts from great [Mediterranean] sea (Dan. 7:2)

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The sea is simply called "the great sea" and while arguably this can be the Mediterranean, there is no mention of it. This is Babylon and it could be any number of seas.

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A. Lion with wings - represented Babylon and Nebuchadzezzar (Dan. 7:4). Wings represent swiftness of victories (Dan. 7:4).
B. Bear - Medo/Persia (Dan. 7:5)
C. Leopard with four wings (Dan. 7:6) - Greece and Alexander the Great (four wings represent four generals who divided kingdom after Alexander's death; Dan. 7:7,8).
D. Fourth Beast with 10 horns - little horn (Antichrist) comes up to smite three horns (Dan. 7:24) [Note: Daniel 7:24, 25 references to Revelation 13:1, the description of the Antichrist in the last days!]

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1. If we accept the interpretation of the first dream to represent these four ancient kingdoms then we can insert them here as well, it is of note, however, that while before it was explicitly stated that Babylon was the head of the statue, that is not true for this dream, it's all entirely a guess.
2. And why, all of a sudden, if we're saying that these are the same kingdoms, does the fouth one not represent the Roman Empire? Again, there is no mention whatsoever of an Antichrist.
3. The application of the dream that I think fits best is a fortelling of the coming of the Roman Empire, not the end of days.
At this point in time there hadn't even been a "first coming" let alone a "second coming". And Jesus was born during teh reign of the Roman Empire, more specifically Nero, whom amny consider to be the person John was talking about in the coded language of Revelation. In Dan 7:13 there comes the "son of man" during the fourth empire and while the little horn is boasting (to those reading, yes the horn talks, strangely enough). If he's the Antichrist John I&II talk of and is implied in Revelation, then it could very well be Nero and here comes Jesus during that time.
You don't necessarily have to accept that this applies to the New Testament as well, but it's a logical alternate for the OT.
However, there is never any mention of an Antichrist except for John I&II so one has to stretch to even assume that it applies to Daniel in teh first place...

Just for the record, if you proved to me that god exists, and gave me -one- shred of real evidence, I'd become a believer in a heartbeat.

And some people, such as myself, prefer to stay in the dark, rather than being blinded by the light, Joey.

No need for apologies. Discussions get heated and feelings sometimes get hurt.

No harm on my part.


But of course, the people who don't See the light will not have light shown upon them.

The events happening all over the world are and have been prophesied for over 1,200 years.

I just pray that I could at least help open up your hearts and your eyes -- gemini, even if you disagree with most of what I say, you at least agree on the Constitutional subjects and you question things - that's a good sign, in my book.

Joey's not stupid; he's very intelligent. I apologize for being such a ignorant person at times, but I should give him more credit. Just because I disagree with him doesn't mean he is wrong.

he he, Joey sounds like an idiot

Damn, I read ALL of your posts, Joey, and it didn't alter my opinion in the least bit. It didn't even provide further insight on the topic. Anyway, the Bible means nothing to me, so try to come up with some real proof to defend your argument.

The Jack Van Impe "document" was something I typed up after taking notes from his EC Antichrist video.

http://www.jvim.org


So there you have it, folks.

The European Union began with the signing of the Treaty of ROME.

Seven (heads) economic superpowers (G7) plus the 10-member federation (EU) -- in my opinion and backed up with Biblical facts -- will be the "sea" described in Revelation 13:1 that will give rise to the Antichrist.

The E.C. Antichrist

Dr. Jack Van Impe

http://www.jvim.org

1776 - Illuminati formed to establish New World Order
- "Secret Societies" Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Club of Rome formed to carry out Illuminati's goals

Year 2000 journalists predictions -- Europe will "evolve into a federal government"

Federalism = a "union" of organizations implementing CENTRAL authority
- Full command of North Atlantic Treaty Organization. [Note: Rev. 13:1 describes a "beast" coming out of the sea of Gentile nations with seven heads and 10 horns - NATO consists of ocean-fronting, Gentile countries]
- Implementation of all policies, laws, regulations, currency as of Y2K

G-7 Industrial Nations [Note: Rev. 13:1 describes the Antichrist arising out of a "sea" having seven heads and 10 horns --- the image Daniel saw!]
1. G-7 include: United States, Italy, France, Germany, Japan, Great Britain, Canada [Note: Rev. 13:1 - sea having SEVEN heads]
2. During End Times, final world government will be made via ECONOMIC means - the seven countries mentioned above are economic superpowers!

The 10 Horns
- Debate has been centered on the "revised Roman Empire" not mentioned specifically in the Bible
- 1957 --- European Union created with the signing of the TREATY OF ROME
Goals of the EU (aka E. Community, E. Commission)
1. Single currency (euro)
2. One central bank
3. One high Court (International Criminal Court)
4. One army (NATO)
5. One central economic system (European Free Trade Association; allies include International Monetary Fund, World Bank - members include seven aforementioned G7 Countries!)

Explanation of Daniel
- Present-day Belgium, Luxemborg, The Netherlands (Holland) were captured and placed into the Roman Empire by war in 58 B.C.
- "Revived" in 1948 - members of the countries held summit to create the beginnings of the European Union
- Final leader of final three nations of EU will have much power over the rest
[Note: Spain and Austria were two of the last three admitted to the EU; both countries have top leaders descending from Roman Empire leaders!]
- Little "horn" in Revelation will break 10 members in "pieces" [Note: Daniel 2:34 mentions the Antichrist as a "stone" that breaks the iron and clay toes (10 toes) to pieces]
[Side note: Daniel 2:34 also references to Dan. 8:25, the verse describing the Antichrist! And Rev. 13:1 references back to Dan. 8:25!]

"European Community (read: Union) law will have primacy and be enforced over every national law." -- The European

Explanation: Which is why England, Italy and Germany have complained about their constitutions ringing "void" and being circumvented!

"Journalists and politicians say this [E.U. news] without knowing it's in the Bible!" -- Dr. Jack Van Impe

Well, I prayed for wisdom and understanding of the End Times.

Here is what I have gotten thus far:

(Note: like I've said before, you must understand Daniel to understand Revelation)

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Daniel: Visions & the Antichrist

Joey Dauben / The Ellis County Press

http://www.joeydauben.com


God's Program for the Gentiles
Daniel Chapter 2: Nebuchadzezzar's Dream

I. Nebuchadzezzar's Dream
A. Background of Nebuchadzezzar
1. Father was founder of Chaldean dynsasty
2. Ruled Babylon from 605 to 562 B.C.
3. Longest-reigning king of the neo-Babylonian period (626 - 539 B.C.)
4. Subjugated Jerusalem, burned Solomon's Temple and exiled Israelites to Babylon (597 to 581 B.C.)
5. Known for implementing "hanging gardens."
a. Babylon: among seven wonders of ancient world

B. The Dream
1. Called his advisors, astrologers, magicians and sorcerers to interpret dream (Dan. 2:2) [Note: Babylon was known for rampant paganism and idolatry]. Threatened to cut advisor "in pieces and make their homes a dunghill" if dream not interpreted (Dan. 2:5).
2. Called upon Daniel, who had been taken captive by Babylonians (Dan. 2:13).
a. Daniel called upon God to deliver the interpretation of the dream via night vision (Dan. 2:19).
b. Daniel told Nebuchadzezzar God gave vision (Dan. 2:28)
3. "The Great Image" (Dan. 2:31)
a. Head of fine gold (Dan. 2:32)
b. Chest/arms of silver
c. Stomach/thighs of brass
d. Legs of iron/ 10 toes of clay mixed with iron (Dan. 2:33)
e. Stone that smote the image of the iron and clay (10 toes) and broke them to pieces (Dan. 2:34 - referenced to Daniel 8:24, describing the Antichrist).
4. Daniel interprets the image
a. "Thou [Nebuchadzezzar] art the head of gold." (Dan. 2:38)
b. After Nebuchadzezzar, shall arise another kingdom (Medo-Persia, Cyrus the Great, 550 BC), and another king of brass (Alexander the Great) which shall rule over all the earth (Dan. 2:38,39)
a. Gold head = Nebuchadzezzar
b. Silver chest/arms = Cyrus the Great
c. Brass = Alexander the Great
d. Iron legs = Roman Empire "breaks in pieces" (Dan. 2:40). Two legs represent the two headquarters of the Roman Empire. Holy Roman Empire suffered defeat via internal corruption [Note: Roman Empire was not fully defeated, making the toes of clay and iron an "extension" of the Roman Empire, or a "revived" R.E.]
e. Toes shall be "partly broken and partly strong" (Dan. 2:42)
f. God shall set up a kingdom in the last days (Dan. 2:44) and the stone (Antichrist) shall break the kingdoms of clay, silver, gold. Gold made known to the king what shall come to passand the "dream is certain" (Dan. 2:45).
g. Daniel and two Believer friends made rulers of Babylon provinces (Dan. 2:48).
5. Nebuchadzezzar sets up golden image in Babylon, forces people to worship it (Dan. 3:5)
6. Furnace to those who refuse to worship it (Dan. 3:6)
7. Daniel and friends (Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego) [Note: The three were given Babylonian names when captured] refused to worship golden image (Dan. 3:16) and were cast alive into fiery furnace (Dan. 3:21) and lived (Dan. 3:24-26).
8. Nebuchadzezzar was astonished, praised God, threatened to cut people in pieces if they worshipped anone else besides God - made the three rulers of all Babylon (Dan. 3-29,30)

II. Daniel's vision of the four beasts from great [Mediterranean] sea (Dan. 7:2)
A. Lion with wings - represented Babylon and Nebuchadzezzar (Dan. 7:4). Wings represent swiftness of victories (Dan. 7:4).
B. Bear - Medo/Persia (Dan. 7:5)
C. Leopard with four wings (Dan. 7:6) - Greece and Alexander the Great (four wings represent four generals who divided kingdom after Alexander's death; Dan. 7:7,8).
D. Fourth Beast with 10 horns - little horn (Antichrist) comes up to smite three horns (Dan. 7:24) [Note: Daniel 7:24, 25 references to Revelation 13:1, the description of the Antichrist in the last days!]


Sources:
Holy Bible - King James Version
The E.C. Antichrist - Dr. Jack Van Impe

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Its dosnt say out of 10 nations. espically not in europe. just because the left behind books says he came out of europe dosnt mean the antichrist will come out of there

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeyDauben:
mags, you obviously have no knowledge of the Bible, because if you did, you'd know that Israel wasn't a declared a nation until 1948 -- yet all throughout the Bible, the word "Israel" is mentioned!

And that was more than 2,000 years ago!QUOTE]

this is exactly what you said. where the hell does it talk about israel? i have it in front of me, tell me where it says that.

The Roman Empire didn't even exist in Daniel's time. (I believe the Greek city states had most of the power then).

Also, not to nitpick, but it was Nebuchadnezzar's dream, not Daniel's.

No where in the entire book of Daniel does it mention an "Antichrist".

What is kind of interesting about the dream is, depending on the interpretation of history you use and the sucession of empires (Babylon, Grek, Roman, Assyrian and such) it might have predicted the rise of the first Roman Empire, not entirely too hard to do given the time, but still, mention of a "divided empire" (2: 39-43) with "diverse peoples" could have meant any vast empire, but certainly the Roman Empire, divided in two, East and West, fits the bill (2:41). With a big Empire you get a diverse people from the Jews in the East to the Gauls and Spaniards in the West and teh Germanic tribes or Britons in the North.

Of course, this has the bias of looking at the past and squeezing it into scripture. We can't know the meaning or intent of what Daniel supposedly said. It's hearsay really.

Still, I see nothing that makes me freak out about a coming end-time or an Antichrist. Especially not one that fits current events.

And to compare the European Union to the Holy Roman Empire is absolute lunacy!!!

oh my god!! and you still fail to provide a quote...you hate it when people test your faith don't you??

Didn't a man coin the phrase Europe or something? This is getting tiresome.

There are tons of names for the European countries in the Bible, if only you would look.

But God didn't tell His people to "Go to Europe" - he, did, however, instruct them to spread the Gospel to all the "ends of the earth" and "throughout the land."

Joey, I am not confused by the difference between a continent and a country, what I am confused by is your round-about answer. It in no shape, way, or form answered my request of where Europe is mentioned in the Bible. I am not a religious person, but I have studied the Bible for many years now, and I have never read anything about Europe.

Joey, I still think you are a complete idiot, and I am convinced you don't have a quote that talks about Europe, because you have failed to mention it!