I'm sure all pro-lifers can say "Abortion is murder!" "It kills babies!" "A baby is a human!"

But can you prove it?
A fetus is not considered viable until 25 weeks, meaning there would be no attempt to save one born before then. 88% of abortions occur before the 13th week.

Why is abortion wrong if what you're aborting is not even viable yet?

If you cannot prove them, can you at least elaborate?

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What I would like is for him to justify those beliefs, just out of plain curiosity.

Is it possible to always justify beliefs?

I can't prove them. Apologies. This is where the internet lacks something the real world has.

Sort of clpo.
I don't really care what he believes, I have my own conception of what is the truth in this subject and no one is going to change it.
What I would like is for him to justify those beliefs, just out of plain curiosity.

I think speed would simply be happy with you saying they're your beliefs, instead of making it seem as if it's the truth (which it very well may be). Without any evidence or proof, any skeptic will take offense at your insistence that it's true.

I can't back it with anything you'd believe in. I don't believe just because I believe. I have proof in my life, experiences that I can't deny. I have history, and I can't and won't let it go. If you want to question whether it was in a physical realm or a spiritual one, rest assured, it was physical. I could give you simple accounts, but they would be just that, accounts, not provable, and easily knocked down by "what ifs" because you weren't there, and you couldn't see or feel what I did..

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it obviously stems from denial.

I can't question your spiritual beliefs, because they are precisely that, spiritual, and thus personal.
What I can question are the derivations of those beliefs, like saying animals have ideology, and suggesting the same about plants.
You can't just talk mysticism as a justification,

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They are aware. They are aware of themselves, what and who they need, their wants, emotions, the world around them, complete Nature in general

When saying something so far out as that you have to back it with more than your personal beliefs. I believe the contrary as I've made obvious, but I back my opinions with diverse sources of knowledge and accepted wisdom.

I'm only in the first section of the book, so all I could give was my insane opinion, which any person here could probably guess right off. And I don't want to, not yet.

I'd like to see what you have to say regarding plants, but we really are getting way off topic with absurd analogies.

*shrugs* Believe what you want, speed, though it obviously stems from denial. I'll stick to my spirituality, thank you.

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What is that supposed to mean? please clarify... I feel like making fun of you so give me a reason not to.

hmph. Go ahead. I care not. It has been explained enough for anyone who has an ounce of spiritual belief in them to understand.

I don't have religous beliefs.

I respect science, but am also aware that it is not the only source for truth, or a true answer.

You're lucky I haven't started talking about plants, which I can almost back up scientifically. ( Just let me finish this book first, and I might get back to you )

I am, a deeply deeply spiritual person. That presides over almost everything else. I am first, a lover of Nature and the world, second a writer and a poet, and third, only third, a rational being. *bows*

Shade I never got around to flaming you for saying animals had ideology, and decided to just let it pass assuming it was a misunderstood statement, but you've come back to the exact same concept again without further claryfiing.
This makes me think I'm either stupid and unable to comprehend what you're trying to say, or you are terribly mixed up on certain concepts.

There is a scientific definition for self awareness, it's called sentience, and contradicting your position, most animals are NOT sentient.

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They are aware. They are aware of themselves, what and who they need, their wants, emotions, the world around them, complete Nature in general. They have a strong connecton that humans posess only in times of great strife or tragety.
clpo, questions like that are hard, especially in a life where we can't see the spiritual, and if we can, it's like through a very very thick fog. It doesn't seem like light, more like a muted, thing coming from...somewhere. I completely understand.

What is that supposed to mean? please clarify... I feel like making fun of you so give me a reason not to.

Most animal life forms function solely on the instinctual level, they do have needs, but they do not have want's, the only animals that are know to want things are primates. If your religious beliefs compel you to believe that animals have souls I can understand, but you talking of them as incredibly self aware beings doesn't make sense, and is contradictory to significant scientifical evidence. Then again you may not respect science, if so it's useless to talk about this with you.

I knew you were going to bring up the mirror thing.

They are aware. They are aware of themselves, what and who they need, their wants, emotions, the world around them, complete Nature in general. They have a strong connecton that humans posess only in times of great strife or tragety.

clpo, questions like that are hard, especially in a life where we can't see the spiritual, and if we can, it's like through a very very thick fog. It doesn't seem like light, more like a muted, thing coming from...somewhere. I completely understand.

Yes, but can we prove animals are self-aware? I mean, I know elephants have been shown to recognize their image in a mirror, but is that all it takes to be self-aware? I'm talking about something a little deeper than that, but I always have a hard time explaining it.

I suppose the presence of a soul could work, too, but I have a hard time believing in souls. I mean, what are they? Where are they contained in the body? Are they really ever-lasting? Too many questions.

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In my eyes, a fetus is on the same level as other animals. Humans are self-aware. Fetuses have yet to be shown that they are self-aware.

Animals are self-aware. They have more wisdom than we do, and that's what it takes to be aware of your self and surroundings.

Here's my two cents. We have yet to prove a soul exists ( with a method all humanity accepts: science ), and that, ( in my opinion, of course ) is what makes a person, a person. If we can't prove that, we can't prove a fetus is any more a person than we are...

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Even though they are not solid, legit arguments?

Without them they have no argument.

Even though they are not solid, legit arguments?

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I hope this doesn't have any negative affect on our YNMarriage. My real-life girlfriend is pro-life (about as much as you, Kate), but we somehow manage to get along

Haha. Of course not.

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Must we continue to use hypothetical arguments?

yes

Must we continue to use hypothetical arguments?

I wasn't providing reasons to have abortions; I was pointing out that it's not guaranteed the fetus will become an infant. It was merely an observation. I'll let you make your own conclusions as to what it means.

I hope this doesn't have any negative affect on our YNMarriage. My real-life girlfriend is pro-life (about as much as you, Kate), but we somehow manage to get along.