I don't understand why people can't compramise. My mom is Christian and my dad is Morman. Odd mix huh? We just don't go to church.

Evann

religion is so ******* up

it makes people of certain religions (::cough::christianity::cough: think that they're better than people with other beliefs. where's the equality in that?

besides, if your a true believer, you wouldn't care what other people thought of your beliefs.

[This message was edited by YNLissa on November 23, 2003 at 03:46 PM.]

___Justice is not dependant on religion, they are two totally different words. I have this cooky dream of a nation where everyone keeps their own beliefs to themselves or with others with the same ones... a place where it actually means something to own your own religious freedom without fear of favoritism or impedement on the justice system. I say: If your personal beliefs are so truly holy and deeply fulfilling, then wouldn't that be enough to satisfy you as long as someone else's beliefs weren't used to decide what is and isn't legal for you? When the answer to that question is "no", then what more proof do you need for why the world will always suck?

letter...

___Why would christians want to terrorize thier own land? Has anyone else(besides you) met someone who openly condones what happened on 9/11? How is this even helping your argument?

Most of the Commandments are what our laws and government are based on. What about the ones that refer to God, not just conduct towards others? I'm Christian but I don't feel the need to run around putting the Ten Commandments everywhere. I'd be offended if someone started putting quotes from the Torah and Koran on judicial buildings, so why don't we do the Christian thing and treat others as we would like to be treated. I do however find the media coverage and the way everyone makes a huge deal of it offensive. Non-Christians need to stop trying to make Christians seem like fanatical psychos out for world domination. It's ridiculously hypocritical...other religions do crazy things but people never seem to care, or they even make excuses for them. A group of Muslims launched an attack on America and killed thousands...oh, but they're just a radicalist minority. Not all Muslims share their views, but they are definitely not a minority. Imagine if a group of Christians did that. The media and America would rip into Christianity. Ah, I went off on a tangent, sorry about that.

T. Jefferson. 3rd President.

On March 4, 1805 in an official government act, as President of the United States, he offered A National Prayer for Peace, ending with the words:
“- - - all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen”

"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—"

While he was still President, Thomas Jefferson was also the chairman of the school board for the District of Columbia. He initiated a plan of education that featured the Bible and Isaac Watts' Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs as the main books for teaching students reading skills.

George Washington, First President
"If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed by the Convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly endanger the religions rights of any ecclesiastical Society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it—"

The following were the beginnings of his Inaugural Speech on April 30, 1779:

"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be particularly improper to omit, in his first official act, my fervent supplications to the Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and who's providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benedictation may consecrate to the liberties and happiness to the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, in the function allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor of my fellow-citizens at large, less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts affairs of men more than the people of the United States

Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency."

James Madison, AKA Father of the Constitution Forth President.

"We have all been encouraged to feel the guardianship, and guidance of that Almighty Being, whose power regulates the destiny of nations."

On November 20, 1825 James Madison wrote these words in a letter to Frederick Beasley:

"The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the World and happiness and man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities to be impressed with it."

In June, 1785 Madison said in Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Asessments:

"Before any man can be considered a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."

On Jan. 11, 1788 Madison wrote these words in The Federalist, No. XXXVII:

"It is impossible for the man of pious reflection to to perceive in (the ability of the delegates to reach agreement on the Constitution of the United States) a finger of that Almighty Hand, which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief."


John Adams Second President

In his inaugural address on March 4, 1797 John Adams stated:

"And may that being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Foundation of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessings upon this nation—"


John Adams wrote on August 28, 1813:

"Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of republicanism and of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society—"

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813 he wrote::

"The general principles, on which the Father achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young Gentlemen could unite- - - And what were these general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the General Principles English and American Liberty, in which all these young men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert her Independence.

Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."

In his personal diary, on February 22, 1756, John Adams wrote::

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God — What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

James Monroe Fifth President

In his first Inaugural address on March 4, 1817, President James Monroe said:

"I enter on the trust to which I have been called by the sufferage of my fellow-citizens with my fervent prayers to the Almighty that He will be graciously pleased to continue to us that protect which He has already so conspicuously displayed in our favor."

When entering his second term as President, James Monroe on March 5, 1821 in his 2nd Inaugural Address stated:
"With a firm reliance on the protection of Almighty God, I shall forwith commence the duties of the high trust to which you have called me."


President Monroe ended his 2nd annual Messages to the United States on November 16, 1818 with these words:

"When we view the great blessing with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we posses of handling them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly down to the source from whence they flow. Let us, then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgements for those blessing to the Divine Author of All Good."

In his 5th Annual Message to the Senate and House, Monroe ended with these words:


"Deeply impressed with the blessing which we enjoy, and of which we have much manifold proofs, my mind is irresistibly drawn to that Almighty Being, the great source source from whence they proceed and whom our most grateful acknowledgements are due."

On December 7, 1824, President Monroe in his 8th Annual Address speaks of the prosperity of America and then comments:

"For these blessings we owe to Almighty God, from whom we derive them, and with profound reverence, our most grateful and unceasing acknowledgments."

He ended his address with:

"That these blessings may be preserved and perpetuated will be the object of my fervent and unceasing prayers to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe."

John Quincy Adams Sixth President

On March 4, 1825 in his Inaugural Speech President Adams said:

"I appear, my fellow-citizens, in your presence and in that of Heaven to bind myself by the solemnities of religious obligation to the faithful performance of the duties allotted to me .."

He ended his Inaugural Address with these words:

"I shall look for whatever success may attend my public service; and knowing that 'except the Lord keep the city watchman waketh but in vain,' with fervent supplications for His favor, to His overruling providence I commit with humble but fearless confidence my own fate and the future destinies of my country."

On December 6, 1825 in his 1st Annual Message, John Quincy Adams started with:

"In taking a general survey of the concerns of our beloved country, with reference to subjects interesting to the common welfare, the first sentiment which impresses itself upon the mind is of gratitude to the Omnipotent Disposer of All Good for the incontinencies unusual extent that has prevailed within our borders, and for that abundance which in the vicissitudes of the seasons has been scattered with profusion over our land. Nor ought we less to ascribe to Him the glory that we are permitted to enjoy the bounties of His hand in peace and tranquility — in peace with all the other nations of the earth, in tranquility among ourselves. There has, indeed, rarely been a period in the history of civilized man in which the general condition of the Christian nations has been marked so extensively by peace and prosperity."


The following are all quotations of John Quincy Adams:


"The first and almost the only Book deserving of universal attention is the Bible."

"I speak as a man of the world to men of the world, and I say to you, Search the Scriptures! The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life."

"From the day of the Declaration — they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct."

"Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope that you make good use of it."


Other:

The very first official act of the Continental Congress was a call to prayer.

This occurred just after receiving the news that British troops had attacked Boston. On September 6, 1774 the first resolution ever made by the Continental Congress said: "Tuesday, September 6, 1774. Resolved, The Rev. Mr. Duche be desired to open the Congress tomorrow morning with prayers, at the Carpenter's Hall, at 9 o'clock."
(The Journals of the Continental Congress 1774-1789, Washington DC)

Obviously Billy fails to understand the question put to him by marine. The question was, find "seperation of church and state" anywhere in the CONSTITUTION. You cannot. Annals of Concgress mean nothing, the only thing that matters are the words in the constitution. That is it. What Madison, Jackson, Jefferson, or any other founding fathers said is irrelevant. The constitution is the SUPREME law and all it says is that Congress cannot make any law endorsing A religion. One religion, not several. The ten commandment should be in school, if that is what is wanted as well as any other religios document deemed appropriate by the board. If you don't like it, go to a private, secular school, or China. The constitution allows for that.


"Freedom is not Free"-Korean War Memorial-Washington DC.

“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
-James Madison -Deist

"I fear to disturb the security which religion now enjoys in this country, in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government."
-Andrew Jackson -Christian

billy was on the right track when he stated the references to god on US currency. forgive me if i repeat something already stated, i came into this debate late in the game.

Removing the theory of religion out of our government is a good idea. this weekend i thought about effects of it's removal.

if we took the judeo-christian religious aspect out of our government, our government would be drastically different.

take billy's example of the dollar bill. in order to demolish the relationship between church and state, we would have to completely re-design ALL us currency, no more "in god we trust" on any coins, and all the references to the bible billy has made.

and all "lying under oath" charges in the history of the united states would have to be dropped...they were lying under an erroneous oath; they're hand on the bible would have meant and would now mean absolutely nothing.

it doesn't stop there. re-wording of the pledge of allegiance, the star spagled banner, the us constitution, the declaration of independence, as well as statues, plaques, and walls of government institutions.

i certainly think separation of church and state is a good idea. and i understand this country was built on judeo-christian beliefs, but i question to what extent those "judeo-christian beliefs" hepled shape the country into what it is today.

we have achieved more in the last 50 years without doing things in the "name of god". The civil rights movement wasn't started in the "name of god". it was started in the name of freedom.

don't try to tell me about ANY religion being peaceful. think about how 3500 innocent people were killed on 9/11 by some RELIGIOUS fanatics in the "name of god". christians- think about the crusades and how 2-million people died in the "name of god". think about the fighting in the middle east because of land rights and RELIGION dictating whats "holy" and what's not. the list goes on, and on, and on.

i'm religiously tolerant when it comes to your right to practice them. that doesn't mean i think that they're a good idea. religion doesn't solve problems. it creates and fuels them.

-conservakid

Madison's original proposal for a bill of rights provision concerning religion read: "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed."1 The language was altered in the House to read: "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or to prevent the free exercise thereof, or to infringe the rights of conscience."2 In the Senate, the section adopted read: "Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith, or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion, . . ."3 It was in the conference committee of the two bodies, chaired by Madison, that the present language was written with its some-
{Page 970}
what more indefinite "respecting" phraseology.4 Debate in Congress lends little assistance in interpreting the religion clauses; Madison's position, as well as that of Jefferson who influenced him, is fairly clear,5 but the intent, insofar as there was one, of the others in Congress who voted for the language and those in the States who voted to ratify is subject to speculation.

1 1 Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).

2 The committee appointed to consider Madison's proposals, and on which Madison served, with Vining as chairman, had rewritten the religion section to read: "No religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed." After some debate during which Madison suggested that the word "national" might be inserted before the word "religion" as "point[ing] the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent," the House adopted a substitute reading: "Congress shall make no laws touching religion, or infringing the rights of conscience." 1 Annals of Congress 729-31 (August 15, 1789). On August 20, on motion of Fisher Ames, the language of the clause as quoted in the text was adopted. Id. at 766. According to Madison's biographer, "[t]here can be little doubt that this was written by Madison." I. Brant, James Madison--Father of the Constitution 1787-1800 at 271 (1950).

3 This text, taken from the Senate Journal of September 9, 1789, appears in 2 B. Schwartz (ed.), The Bill of Rights: A Documentary History 1153 (1971). It was at this point that the religion clauses were joined with the freedom of expression clauses.

4 1 Annals of Congress 913 (September 24, 1789). The Senate concurred the same day. See I. Brant, James Madison--Father of the Constitution 1787-1800, 271-72 (1950).

5 During House debate, Madison told his fellow Members that "he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience." 1 Annals of Congress 730 (August 15, 1789). That his conception of "establishment" was quite broad is revealed in his veto as President in 1811 of a bill which in granting land reserved a parcel for a Baptist Church in Salem, Mississippi; the action, explained President Madison, "comprises a principle and precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment." 8 The Writings of James Madison (G. Hunt. ed.) 132-33 (1904). Madison's views were no doubt influenced by the fight in the Virginia legislature in 1784-1785 in which he successfully led the opposition to a tax to support teachers of religion in Virginia and in the course of which he drafted his "Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments" setting forth his thoughts. Id. at 183-91; I. Brant, James Madison--The Nationalist 1780-1787, 343-55 (1948). Acting on the momentum of this effort, Madison secured passage of Jefferson's "Bill for Religious Liberty". Id. at 354; D. Malone, Jefferson the Virginian 274-280 (1948). The theme of the writings of both was that it was wrong to offer public support of any religion in particular or of religion in general.


then we'll move right into the Baptist / Jefferson letters...so you can prepare an argument...and I have plenty more after that.

quote:

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BillyBarrio, you think the fact that freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion is a false claim? please explain why this statement is wrong and goes against what this country was built on. Feel free to bring up seperation of church and state, but when you do, please tell me what article it is in in the constitution. If you could do this for me, it would be fantastic.

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If you actually read most of the post you would have saw were the statement "separation of church and state” came from, but I guess it’s too much to ask of you to actually read.

BillyBarrio, you think the fact that freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion is a false claim? please explain why this statement is wrong and goes against what this country was built on. Feel free to bring up seperation of church and state, but when you do, please tell me what article it is in in the constitution. If you could do this for me, it would be fantastic.

quote:

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I get what you're saying, but do you realize that though the Koran is not in our courtrooms our country does, in some ways, promote and dedicate national things to other faiths. We have several parks, wherein monuments and mountains...etc... are named after gods that are of different faiths. Our government also allocates funds to certain artists who display artwork that promotes anti-semetic and anti-Christian themes. As Billy Barrio has proven through his dissertation on the dollar bill we do support other faiths. So I don't see how the ten commandments are so controversial. Besides they set a basic moral code for our country. That isn't so bad in my opinion.

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Ok, this is a valid argument, however we are arguing what should be not what is. Just because the governmet allows parks and the such to named for religious beliefs in order to curb public protests, and just because we have all this crap on our dollar bills, does not make it RIGHT. why do we have all of these monuments, parks, and mountains named after religous figures? and why does the government have to allow these artists to do these things? because if they do it once, they set a precedent and are forced to follow it, right or wrong.

Morals are subjective. What i think is moral, you may think is immoral, what one counrty thinks is moral, another may think immoral, and what one community in the US thinks is all right, another may think is totally wrong. You cannot say that the ten commandments set the moral code for our country. Look at the other post by BillyBarrio. Besides the only reason that we have all this stuff on our dollars is cuz during the Cold War we were afraid of being seen as "communistic" because we were athiests cuz we didn't have a set religion, so the government put all this crap on our dollars and in our pleadge so that we could gain allies.

We've dug ourselves into a hole. and the best thing to do when you see that you are in a hole, is stop digging. and that's just what the SC is trying to do.

Quote -
"But here's the problem with that:

They put this up on public property. The minute the government allows for the ten commandments to stay, there will be people waiting in line to put the Koran in a courthouse. And then you've got the Satanists who will put an upsidedown cross in one. (this is for real, they're already planing it.) It's PUBLIC PROPERTY! And if they can keep the ten commandments, then by law they MUST keep the upsidedown crucifix.

Besides, if you are not of a religion that abides by the ten commandments and you go into this courthouse, and see all this religious stuff hanging around, won't you feel almost discriminated against before the trial even starts?

Just my thoughts/arguments."

I get what you're saying, but do you realize that though the Koran is not in our courtrooms our country does, in some ways, promote and dedicate national things to other faiths. We have several parks, wherein monuments and mountains...etc... are named after gods that are of different faiths. Our government also allocates funds to certain artists who display artwork that promotes anti-semetic and anti-Christian themes. As Billy Barrio has proven through his dissertation on the dollar bill we do support other faiths. So I don't see how the ten commandments are so controversial. Besides they set a basic moral code for our country. That isn't so bad in my opinion.

quote:

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I think that this is the most intelligent of the past few posts, though you need to explain the impacts of this for it to be a legit argument.

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I already know where it's going and it's still wrong, dammit I set it up and you are trying to ruin it!!!!

Ok, this thread has gotten too far off track. Whether or not everyone was christian or not is irrelevant! And, irregardless of age, everyone is free to be here. just like we cannot be kicked off of other boards for our age, we should not kick people off of this one.

Back to original question: was the USSC justified in removing the statue? Was this a national government issue, or a state government issue?

quote:

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Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion.

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I think that this is the most intelligent of the past few posts, though you need to explain the impacts of this for it to be a legit argument.

for a marine, you sure don't know the basis of this country....

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion.