quote: BillyBarrio: I did read your post about the dollar bill and have read that before. Did you copy it straight from a book?
yeah...your point? I suppose someone who is a published author of American History has no validity in this conversation do they?
quote: In European countries which have an official but unenforced state religion, (Britain, Norway)people are less likely to be religious. The tendency is to regard religion with suspicion because it is too closely aligned with the state. Non-religiousness increases when you have a state religion but don't force people to practice it.
hmm, did you get that from Andrew Jackson? That ws his point exactly when he refused a National Day of prayer...and yeah...he was a HUGE believer in Christianity.
quote: Okay. First of all, what are twenty and twenty-one-year-olds doing on a site called YOUTH Noise?
define youth...JenDragon is 15 and can go blow for blow with me in a Philosophical debate...
Gwen, you called for someone else to defend your side, and for someone to give an argument that hasn't been made yet? Ok, but be careful what you wish for. My argument is thus: In European countries which have an official but unenforced state religion, (Britain, Norway)people are less likely to be religious. The tendency is to regard religion with suspicion because it is too closely aligned with the state. Non-religiousness increases when you have a state religion but don't force people to practice it. Therefore, I think we should have the Ten Commandments posted in this Alabama courthouse. They should go up in every courthouse. In fact, I would endorse registering every American who doesn't state otherwise as Baptist (England registers them as anglican, Norway as Lutheran). Baptists are our most common Christian sect if you don't count Catholics, who many of you for some reason don't believe are Christian. If we did this, Christianity would be abandoned immediately by many of its followersand we'd no longer hear such idiocies as "Evolution is against the laws of science." Making Christianity the state religion would result in a backlash and a good chance of a much-needed Second Enlightenment.
quote:Okay. First of all, what are twenty and twenty-one-year-olds doing on a site called YOUTH Noise?
Not the typical "my back is against the wall so I'll use any argument I can" argument. Billy's and my age is really irrelevant to the argument at hand, so stop trying to weasel your way out.
Okay. First of all, what are twenty and twenty-one-year-olds doing on a site called YOUTH Noise? Second, Xia: if doing research and a school paper on this subject qualify you to be in this discussion, I have done both. And by the way, I did not once mention the Constitution in my post. BillyBarrio: I did read your post about the dollar bill and have read that before. Did you copy it straight from a book? djmangusa: I agree--the agruments for both sides of this whole issue are getting unbearably repetitive. You are all saying the same thing, in different words and, in BillyBarrio's case, oh so many! I apologize for being so negative, but one-sided arguements give me a headache. And I'm so outnumbered! Hate me if you want, tell me that every word that comes out of my mouth (well, fingers in this case) is wrong, but I still hold my case. I would make a terrible lawyer, wouldn't I?
quote: In the late 18th and early 19th century, there were signs of a new way of thinking based on a wave of religious revivals that began to sweep through the United States. They were partly a reaction against the rationalism that had dominated the country during the Enlightenment and the American Revolution.
quote: There are several factors that led to new religions in America. To begin with the Puritan Revolution of William Penn promoted the idea of freedom for all. In the Enlightenment period there was contempt for intolerance. Many new religions emerged in the ante-bellum period, such as Transcendentalism, Spiritualism, etc. In the period that followed modernism became the focal point and there was a decline in religious enthusiasm. Yet, in reaction to modernity we witness the rise of fundamentalism and dispensationalistic premillenarianism. There is an acceptance of religious pluralism written into the constitution with the separation of church and state in the first amendment. This amendment was shaped by 18th century Enlightenment of pietism, religious pluralism, and a Lockean political tradition. There was a total break with the European heritage since the church-state union and the post-Reformation vision of national Christianity were shattered.
and last but not least...the nail in the coffin
quote: Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.
A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."
if you read up on this a little more, they were a minority when compared to all the other religious or lack of religious beliefs...I guess I should have clarified. As a group, they were the biggest, as a people...they were a minority in the United States by 1776.
Most of the states had official religions, all of which were Christian sects. EVERYONE was christian. This does not mean the laws of the United States were based on these principles, they were based on the principles of the Enlightenment (no, nothing to do with Buddhism) and culled by some fellows who were often rather scared of organized religion, many, many of them deists.
quote: I agree and that is my point or I should say problem with most religions and religious figures, they are selfish and despite all they spout off about how much they are suppose to love everyone, they do exactly the opposite.
quote: Personally, I think the judge should've known better than to put it up in the first place
I agree and that is my point or I should say problem with most religions and religious figures, they are selfish and despite all they spout off about how much they are suppose to love everyone, they do exactly the opposite.
it's far from valid, Christianity was a minority at the time. Also to my knowledge not one Calvinist is noted as a major contributor to anything.
quote: our rights of "Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of happiness" was ripped off of Aristotle’s "Life, Liberty and Property." the idea of individual rights was taken from John Locke. i don't see any statues of these men hanging around. then why a statue that could give a negative impression and lead to more trouble than it's worth?
Ok, to say that the country was based on the idea of Christianity is a valid argument. however, it was NOT the Christianity we think about today. it was based on Calvinism, the idea that the individual had no free will and that you were pre-destined to go to heaven or hell.
also, it was NOT utterly based on Christian ideals. no one in the constitutional convention said "god inspired me to break away from England."
The constitution forbids us from establishing a national religion. look at my first post about the assumed prejudices that can occur from leaving this monument in place.
our rights of "Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of happiness" was ripped off of Aristotle’s "Life, Liberty and Property." the idea of individual rights was taken from John Locke. i don't see any statues of these men hanging around. then why a statue that could give a negative impression and lead to more trouble than it's worth?
Billy, that post about the dollar bill was really interesting. Thanks for posting it. ^__^
I agree with those people about it not being allowed. It's just like at school: If it's your birthday, and you bring in cupcakes, but don't have enough for everyone, you can't pass them out because it's not fair to the people who don't get any.
Personally, I think the judge should've known better than to put it up in the first place (I had to do a current event paper, and this was the one I chose a while ago, so I know what I'm talking about). I also think it was pathetic how those Christians complained so much about it being taken down. If it wasn't taken down, other religious symbols (like upside-down crosses) would need to be put up, and then the Christians would start complaining about that too.
Gwen, if you're going to even mention the Constitution on this site, you have to expect to be corrected about what you say. The people who corrected you have done tons of research on it in order to prove others wrong, ESPECIALLY on the which-religion-our-nation-was-founded-on part. Just wanted to give you a heads up.
quote: Having the Ten Commandments is not so much a matter of expressing our religion as expressing our respect for the morals which inspired our forefathers to make this country what it is today.
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did you even read my post about the dollar bill or did you like most everyone who wants to remain blind to truth just ignore it? Bible blinders I call that, time to take them off and learn the truth.
most people dont, ive figured that out. okay, lets try a different approach: i couldnt care less. that good? *sniff, sniff* tho i do care that my mum is making bean soup tonite for dinner... yummm.
quote: is there something wrong with me not caring?
Obviously you are showing some concern because if you "didn't care" why did you even post? I'm sorry but I still don’t buy the whole “I don't care attitude." That’s my tangent for the day.
djmagnusa, I am all for a constructive argument, but you don't need to be nasty about it. If you want to disagree with something that I say, that's fine, but do you think you could possibly do it decently?
quote:Our country and our judicial system were not founded based on the Koran or the upsidedown crucifix. Having the Ten Commandments is not so much a matter of expressing our religion as expressing our respect for the morals which inspired our forefathers to make this country what it is today. Complete separation of Church and State is virtually impossible--the Church is part of the foundation of the States.
Complete and utter BS, the "morals" of our forefathers were very mixed, so you can't just say it is from a specific philosophy.
quote: One of the problems with this country is that we are so eager to please the minorities that whenever one of them disagrees with something, we tend to oppress ourselves in the process of trying to make them happy. You can never completely please everyone, especially on such a huge issue.
Ok obviously you have a little problem understanding our Constitution, it was specifically designed to PROTECT the Rights of all groups including minorities and putting a Religious monument in a government building is violating the Constitution.
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