Ha ha, Korith, are you still on?

madpuffinkeeper
uptowngirl904

I'm glad to see the two of you missed tha point competely

Part 3 THE GRADUAL TRANSFORMATION

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Another theory that has been propagated about the "Fall of the Roman Empire" is that the Empire never actually fell in some dramatic course of events,and instead slowly transformed itself into a rudimentary form of what we would call "Medieval Europe". Indeed the actual toppling of the Western Empire as a political structure was simply the last step in a long period of social change. The Empire had become less and less "Romanized" as time passed, and the Germanic peoples that had been the Empire's neighbors slowly assimilated themselves. Scholars point to the continuation of Christianity, Roman Law, and the sustainment of the Eastern Roman Empire in the form of Byzantium, as well as other examples.
Since the time of the Emperor Constantine, Christianity had been the official religion of the Roman Empire. The church, with imperial support, began to establish its own structure and hierarchy. The church added a new dimension to Roman society, in which spiritual matters began to take precedence over their political counterparts. Indeed, "the theologians preached doctrines that minimized the importance of serving the state" (Grant).

Henri Pirenne has argued that the "Roman empire, in the economic, political, and cultural senses, survived and even prospered throughout the period of the barbarian invasions." He claims it was the rise of the Islamic faith in the east which culturally divided the empire and led to its eventual breakup. He claims that the empire ended sometime during the seventh or eighth century when Islam "destroyed the unity of the Mediterranean and turned it into a Moslem lake." During this time, the disunity of the Roman empire rendered it powerless against this movement.

In summary, scholars have argued that the Roman Empire did not end abruptly for a specific reason, but rather underwent a gradual transformation. These scholars see change as inevitable and look at "The Fall of Rome" as simply "time running its course."

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Part 2 THE DECLINE OF THE MILITARY

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When one thinks of the Roman empire, the first thing which may come to mind is the strength and stability provided by its army. It is widely held that the fortunes of Rome were directly tied to the prowess of her military. Many scholars have maintained that in the later period of the Empire, Rome's military might steadily declined for a variety of reasons. In the end it was this lack of security which allowed the barbarian hordes to topple what had once been the mightiest empire in the world.
This theory has been stated succinctly by historian Arthur Ferrill. "The destruction of Roman military power in the fifth century A.D. was the obvious cause of the collapse of Roman government in the West". He contends that a massive the Roman army, with perhaps 200,000 men, eventualy disentegated into an unorganized rable. The most obvious factor in the falling apart of the army is the atrition sustained in the numerous conflicts with the Barbarians. Added factors such as the reliance on mercenaries, the fragmentation of the soldiers' loyalty to numerous power centers, and lack of incentive for Roman Citizens to enlist, combined to destroy the Army as a viable unit.

One of the most important factors in the decline of the military was the lack of recruits from "Romanized" backgrounds. One problem was the granting of citizenship to all free men within the empire. Originally, non-citizens who served in the Roman army would be granted citzenship at the end of their enlistment. "It was this desire of the provincials to acquire Roman citizenship that accounts for the fact that during the first two centuries voluntary enlistments sufficed to keep the armed services up to establishment. Certainly the army would not have remained at full strength if it had depended on volunteers from those who already possessed the Roman citizenship. For these showed the remarkable disinclination to serve" (Salmon). Rome was also experiencing a poulation decrease during this time. As the population decreased, the available manpower obviously did likewise. In addition to the widespread disease, "war, starvation, and forcible deportation must be taken into accout" (Boak). These occurences would obviously have negative results on the military establishment.

Because of factors such as the "free citizenship" now offered by Rome and the lack of available manpower, Rome's army, which had been the symbol of its power, was left unorganized and nearly useless. Because of this, the Barbarians began to infiltrate the Western Empire, first as small groups of settlers and mercenaries, but eventualy in whole tribes or "hoardes". They detected the military impotence of the Romans, and exploited it to establish their own kingdoms. Thus the political entity known as the Roman Empire came to an end, and the Germanic kingdoms of western Europe began to flourish.

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I don't even think most of you know how rome fell.... Had nothing to do with moral decay....(put that in especially for Deagle and Joey):

I will post the 3 theories surrounding the fall of rome in 3 parts:

PartI ECONOMIC COLLAPSE

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Multiple scholars have contended that the primary reason for Rome's decline and eventual fall was the receding of the great Empire's economic might, and the social repercussions that accompanied it On the surface, this may seem quite simple, but in actuality, this phenomenon affected nearly every aspect of Roman life, from the decline of the population to the lack of maintenance of infrastructure.
One of the primary catalysts to the deterioration of the economy was the lack of circulating currency in the Western Empire. Two reasons for the lack of funds are wholesale hoarding of bullion by Roman citizens, and the widespread looting of the Roman treasury by the "barbarians". These two factors, coupled with the massive trade deficit with Eastern Regions of the Empire served to stifle the growth of wealth in the west. This would have far reaching ramifications that permiate the very fabric of Roman society, as we shall soon discuss.

Ellsworth Huntington has proposed a unique hypothesis relating the changing rainfall patterns and climate in the Mediterranean with the economic problems encountered by the western empire. He basically writes that, as the climate became more unstable, it began to alternate annually between hot droughts and cold rainy seasons. This, for obvious reasons, would decrease crop yields, and would force the Romans to undergo widespread irrigation projects on land which had formerly been self-sufficient. The huge quantities of water needed for this project had to be contained in large reservoirs, and the standing water became stagnant. Stagnant water is the ideal environment for breeding mosquitos, the carriers of malaria. Malaria began manifesting itself at epidemic levels, weakening and killing a large percentage of the population.

The fluctuation in temperature and climate also had more direct effects on the populus. Huntington believed that humans operate most effectively when their environment is at a stable temperature, preferrably between 60 and 70 degrees Fahrenheit. This ever-changing environment had a negative effect on the average Roman's intellectual and physical stamina. Huntington believed that this was such an overwhelming phenomenon that he writes, "Even if there had been no change in the racial composition of the inhabitants, no malaria, no agricultural distress, and no invasion of the barbarians, there still would apparently have been a decline" (Huntington). Since the mental and physical capacities of the average citizen were lessened, and the ground less fertile, it should be fairly obvious that the economy would suffer as a result.

Edward Gibbon has maintained that the Roman Empire met its end because of its decaying infrastructure. Rome's buildings were severely crippled throughout the years by time and nature. He points to Nero's fire, which lasted "either six or nine days," as particularly paralyzing. The innumerable buildings provided a "perpetual fuel for the flames," and when all was done, "only four of the fourteen regions were left entire; three were totally destroyed, and seven were deformed by the relics of smoking and lacerated edifices" (Witonski). He also noted that the rivers surrounding Rome have, for the most part, highly irregular courses. This resulted in frequent flooding which damaged and destroyed all buildings situated below the hills of Rome. Since Rome's currency was being hoarded by citizens and stolen by the barbarians, the empire lacked sufficient funding to repair its crumbling structures.

In essence, the Roman empire crumbled due to insufficient economic power, which came about for a variety of reasons. It lacked the resources necessary to keep such a vast empire intact. The empire reached such a point that it could no longer support itself, becoming top heavy, and crashed down like a tower that had grown too high for its own foundation.


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Thanks to our neo-conservatives and communists, our country has been digging a hole straight to hell.

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And when we get there we'll find......you!!!!!!

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they probably wouldn't, because the netherlands doesn't have a president. queen beatrix is head of state, and jan peter balkenende is prime minister.

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That just made my day.

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I would bet less then 2% of people in America know the President of the Netherlands.

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they probably wouldn't, because the netherlands doesn't have a president. queen beatrix is head of state, and jan peter balkenende is prime minister.

if you're trying to prove some one wrong, it's best to know the answer. otherwise, you look even dumber.

Sheesh. What a load of paranoid doom-and-gloomers.

DesertEagle: You are demonising liberals to the point that it is just ridiculous. And Joey, too. Crikey, get over yourselves. 'Communists! Communists! Run AWAAAAY!'

Deagle: Would you prefer a country where nobody was ABLE to object to the war? You want a dictatorship. Like it or not, people are free to have their own opinions in the good old USA. Get used to it, heh. It's something called democracy.

Bex

Yes well Deagle has a good heart, but a short temper it seems.

Just please remember, There are Christians and though who "claim" to be.

And BTW Puff, any questions you have about Christianty you can ask me.

Korith, I was talking about DesertEagle in case you didn't realize.

Here are a few quotes from the deagle himself:

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First things first. Anti-war, anarchy, homosexuality, (extreme) liberalism, and aetheism are ALL anti-American, and in general, idiotic.

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After this one, he claimed to be referring not to suicide but target practice. It's a personal favorite.

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People, they made a cure for depression. Its called a gun.

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jesus, if atheism is a religion (as I have heard many atheists say), they need to keep their religion quiet.

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Christianity has around 2000000000 followers. It’s a fact, look it up. Even an atheist moron like you has to go by the facts.

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SnoopyD, the fact is that atheists are generally very bitter people. Why? There are many reasons/theories for why they are outright mean. Probably the most logical one is that they are flamboyantly ignorant.

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Making a mockery of the Wiccan religion...

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Witchcraft, paganism, bah. You might as well be a follower of the Greek and Roman gods. From my experience, wiccans are just people who usually used to be Christians, got angry or confused, than turned to wiccanism. What is the point of being a witch? Is it fun? Do you cast spells on people? Or is it just a hobby someone turned into a religion?

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Here we have Deagle mocking me for my athiest viewpoints... Note the high level of judgement, as I had not yet told him what it was I had been praying for.

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I figured that most of the atheists on this site were Christian at one point, than their doggy died and they got mad and gave up. Sure, prayer may seem one sided, especially when you pray out of greed. "God, let me win the lottery" "God, let me become a billionaire" "God, let me become popular at school".

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Well, I'm about OD'd on deagle-speak. If you want more just search him.

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You're the one who hates. You hate everyone who is not a fascist Christian zealot like yourself.

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Careful, that’s another judgment...


I don't hate non-Christians, I love them just as much as my Christian brothers and sisters.

any Christian who hates, is not a Christian but a hypocrite.

Christ didn't hate the romans or jews, not even while they were killing him.

Please don't confuse Christians with people who "claim" to be Christians.

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What will happen when they complete this hole of immorality and hate?

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You're the one who hates. You hate everyone who is not a fascist Christian zealot like yourself.

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America is Hell. If we dug a hole, we'd reach Heaven.

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Absoultely wrong. America is number one. However, the liberal idiots are trying to make us hell. We, America, are currently standing on a platform of Christianity and democracy which outshines the rest of the world. And as we attempt to move forward and help the world, the liberals are digging a hole straight through that platform. Right now, I'd say they're about halfway through. What will happen when they complete this hole of immorality and hate? Well, first our government will fall through, and than the American populace will resort to liberal tactics and our entire country will become a racist bunch of bigots. than, they will crawl through the hole they dug and tear down the pillar of Christianity that America has stood on for so long. After this, America WILL fall, and we WILL be hell. So keep it up, you liberal communists, keep digging this hole until we can finally call ourself Nazis, and America will be destroyed once and for all. Ahhh, the liberal dream will be finally be achieved. One of my greatest fears is a country run by liberals...

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Socialism=Founded by the Nazi Party

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I'm sorry Korith, but we have some lovely parting gifts.

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America is Hell. If we dug a hole, we'd reach Heaven.

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Don't be creeped out, but... Have I ever told you I love you?

(Deag's gonna have a fit when he reads that)

America is Hell. If we dug a hole, we'd reach Heaven.

And I agree America is a lot like Rome in that is very wealthy, is the center of trade, politics, power...

...but like Rome, it will fall.

James Madison said if our country is ever to be defeated, it would be from within, not an overt attack...

Thanks to our neo-conservatives and communists, our country has been digging a hole straight to hell.

wadingo, you gotta be careful -- in America, liberal means something entirely different than what it means in Europe.

Classical liberal is the same thing as libertarian, which is what I consider myself.

But I dare not say I'm a "classical liberal."

Liberal these days and times means the same thing as progressive or socialist.

I'd rather just Joe McCarthy it and call them all Communists, because that's in effect what they are. Socialism is just the next step to communism, really.

Liberal is outdated. Let's just call them what they really are: Communists.

1) Liberlism=Socialism
Socialism=Founded by the Nazi Party

Very distance cousins but same family.

2) very Good point.