I agree with Sangle and Proud. we all grew up in different cultures with different values so even if a country wants to become democratic the desicion has to be made from within; not what some other country told them to.

"How? What has he done in office that justifies the term "moral" besides entering a foolish war?"

ban gay marriage. a topic i dontw ant to get into until im finished researching.
ban partial birth abortion. whcihc is a horrible practice.

"The only stable democracy they have ever seen is now blowing up buildings, shooting people, and stealing their lands."

no i think you got it backwards. they (insurgents) are blowing up buildings. they are bombing churches.
we were too afraid to blow up the al-sadr mosque because of politics.

"Yes t was."

im getting differnt stories from you lefties. some are telling me we went to war because of WMDS. some are saying went to war with iraq because of 911. which is it?

"They can, and they do. What you are thinking of is what the media hypes up. That is what's happening in Saudia Arabia. In Turkey they aren't allowed to wear Hijab's."

which of course goes against separation of church and state. but theyre not American...

"That's the point, some women choose to wear the veil because they feel that they are better respected, more protected, and they recieve more freedom. Some things you can say are "trivial" Red, because you're not female."

yes but you forget the other part. the are beaten, raped and sometimes killed.
Uday Hussein himself was a known rapist. wouild kill husbands and take their lives as concubines for his own sick fantasies. i even heard he had a picture of the Bush twins on his wall. disgusting the lot of them.

"I'm sure that in Saudia Arabia the silence needs to be broken, but it is getting better slowly but surely without the USA invading."

in some cases you can achive a change for the better without war. sometimes you cant. differnt circumstances demand differnt apporaches.

You're welcome Sangle
And sorry Red, I thought you were saying "the silence is deafening" to me because I didn't respond right away.

quote:

---

that fact is even if they didnt want to they couldnt.

---

They can, and they do. What you are thinking of is what the media hypes up. That is what's happening in Saudia Arabia. In Turkey they aren't allowed to wear Hijab's.

quote:

---

that is why it is sickening to hear the feminists here trifle about trivial matters when there is real feminine oppression in Islamic theocracies.

---

That's the point, some women choose to wear the veil because they feel that they are better respected, more protected, and they recieve more freedom. Some things you can say are "trivial" Red, because you're not female.

quote:

---

the silence is deafening.

---

I'm sure that in Saudia Arabia the silence needs to be broken, but it is getting better slowly but surely without the USA invading.

Oh, and thanks Proud, the same goes for you ^_^

quote:

---

the silence is deafening.

---

Was that directed at me? Ouch. I was getting a bite to eat, not quivering in fear.
What can we do to change the minds of the people in the Middle East? It certainly isn't force them to believe that women are equal. Much as I hate to say, the only way is to let them naturally accept the fact that women can be equals.

quote:

---

Bush has the morals. we saw that.

---

How? What has he done in office that justifies the term "moral" besides entering a foolish war?

quote:

---

and northstar how do you know they fear dem gov'ts?

---

The only stable democracy they have ever seen is now blowing up buildings, shooting people, and stealing their lands.

quote:

---

yogore was 911 used to liberate Iraq? no it wasnt.

---

Yes t was. Fear. Mongering. Or have you forgotten about all the weapons of mass destruction he did not have?

that fact is even if they didnt want to they couldnt. women were beaten. that is why it is sickening to hear the feminists here trifle about trivial matters when there is real feminine oppression in Islamic theocracies.
the silence is deafening.

Sure, we do have a moral obligation to promote freedom and equality. But the keyword here is promote. That does not mean we should barge in on some country and save them from their evil and terrible oppressors. They will work it out themselves. If their people truly hate what is going on, they will rebel. We had a rebelion against England. Of course, the French helped - but we asked them to.

9/11 is by no means unimportant, but it isn't a reason to hate the Middle East. It showed us that we aren't invulnerable, which was a very important and much needed lesson (one which still hasn't hit home).

The problem with thinking that America is the perfect representation of democracy is that it's untrue. There are other countries that have democracies and I don't see them trying to liberate every country under oppression.

Yes, the terrorists did horrible things, so have we (Wounded Knee, anyone?). The Iraquies might have been happy when they were liberated, but that was before we continued to occupy their country.

quote:

---

ya those sickeing mUslim extremists...

---

I hate it when people say things like that. Their actions were violent and stemed from hatred, but that wouldn't exist if we would take the time to learn a bit about other cultures. Most people think, Why would I learn another language? - all the other countries learn English anyways. By learning the language, you learn the culture.

By the way Sangle, nice point.
What she means, red, is that some of the women see nothing wrong with living under a veil. They were raised that way and see nothing wrong with it. Just as we were raised to think that there is something wrong with a guy if they cry. Greeks don't think there is a problem with this. It's all a matter of a country's culture.

the fact is women here arent forced too as women there are. they probabbly dont know this...

This will be a little random, but some people in the non-western world whom we consider suppressed think that we are. Some muslim women believe that the westerner women are being suppressed by showing their bodies, just as we think they are being suppressed because of their Hijab

It all comes down to the basic question of what the person thinks is right. For example, our perfect body would be thin/athletic, but in years past the being overweight was a sign of great wealth.

Who are we to know?

quote:

---

"It isnt right . This whole concept of interfering in other cultures,always thinking we know best .

---

That's what i mean... we don't have the right to tell other people how to live, what government to use. Some countries in Africa have been in tribes for hundreds of years, so it's not going to work if we just suddently show up one day and say you have to be a democracy...

"It isnt right . This whole concept of interfering in other cultures,always thinking we know best . This great white weastern way. Like its our duty to teach the rest of the world how to live . How many cultures have been undermined and withered away because of that attitude."
One of your Presidents said that .

quote:

---

we unlike other nations do not forget. we will never forget.

---

An excellent policy! Grudges! Yes we are really setting ourslef up as a benificent Superpower!
I haven't forgotten these things-
-The Revolutionary War (England)
-WWI + WWII (Germany and Japan)
-Cold War (Russia)
- That thing with the reconissance plane. 2001 (China)

YES! CUT OFF ALL DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH THESE NATIONS! WE WILL NEVER FORGET!!!!!

i was insinuating aynthing. i was saying they were not the only ones doing bad things.
Bush has the morals. we saw that.
now Aguagon i was saying that because northstar was saying that muslims didnt blow up buildings.
have it your way then. i wont use 911. there are plenty of other buildings blown up by terrorists.
the Khobar Towers, The Kenyan Embassy, the first bombing of WTC, the list goes on.
the same was said about Afghanistan and yet the afghanis were piling in to vote.
they were so happy when they were liberated. they were dancing in the streets! slapping their sandals on torn down statues of Hussein! you just see the radical muslims that want the troops dead on TV! thats where people get the idea of "oh they dont want democracy! lets leave them alone!"
i never implied that countries w/o democracies were going to bomb us i dont know how that one got brought up.
no because if we let them do it by their own. some radical is going to have all of these radical beliefs put in tto their Constitution. they'll take advantage of it.
i dont get it. you guys are saying we shouldnt hav made them free or what?
and northstar how do you know they fear dem gov'ts? isnt that how saddma was elected in the first place?
orur troops are keeping them safe.
yogore was 911 used to liberate Iraq? no it wasnt.

quote:

---

we unlike other nations do not forget. we will never forget.

---

Then, your plans of success shall fail. One, even as a nation, is forced to forget unfortunate events, if not, you will find yourself slidding and falling on the same slab of ice.

quote:

---

i suppose to you 911 was just some insignificant event.

---

Upon my spies taking notice of your government, media, and people, I will say 9-11 has been used by your President as some sort of emotion chord to pluck as if your country is a balalaika everytime he wants something from his people.

quote:

---

we unlike other nations do not forget. we will never forget.

---

Not forgetting is different that using it as a reason for waging war across the world.

You can't impose democracy. The movement must start with the people who are being oppressed in a country themselves. Once they take initiative, if they ask us for help, we should consider giving it. However, to impose democracy is like putting a gun's to someone's head and saying: "Be free! Be happy! NOW!"

I should also like to point out that democracy is not simply democracy. Democratic countries can have many very different and very valid ways of running things. I understand that for this reason, we're letting the Iraqis have a lot of input in writing their own Consitution, but it really should be up to them entirely. But, of course, we feel entitled to stick our own crap in, because we helped liberate their country. From that aspect, I can see why many Iraqis are so frustrated: we did them a "favor" they didn't ask for, and are now becoming offended when they don't worship us for it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by redrepublican:
our contry voted on morals and we saw who won.

---

Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of Bush voters and their alleged "morals." Let's just say that many Americans have "morals" confused with things mentioned in your signature, such as fascism, tyranny, and oppression.

quote:

---

or i suppose to you 911 was just some insignificant event.

---

This wasn't even in any sort of context. It's almost a parody of the right-wing "use 9/11 at every possible turn" initiative. Randomly saying liberals didn't mind 9/11 does not prove any sort of point.

Now, if you were trying to imply that countries without democracy will eventually bomb us (which you did a horrible job doing), I'm gonna have to laugh. There are tons of non-democratic countries that have yet to bomb us. Contrary to what Bushie would have you believe, a third-world country's lack of democracy is not automatically a clear and present threat to our national security.

quote:

---

Originally posted by northstar316:
exactly my piont! They do not want a democratic government because they fear the democratic governments. We have to be an example to them that they can love and respect.

---

Sing it!

quote:

---

Originally posted by CaliGurl:
how do you think we should be "promoting" these democratic ideals? By sending troops in there and intimatate them?

---

exactly my piont! They do not want a democratic government because they fear the democratic governments. We have to be an example to them that they can love and respect.

how do you think we should be "promoting" these democratic ideals? By sending troops in there and intimatate them?