Yes, we do not know for sure if the books written in the Middle East are God's chosen form of communication. But no religion can be proved. Even for atheists, the theory of evolution is just that...a theory. The issue shouldn't even be about the books' lack of complete proof. You're thinking concrete, 100% scientific proof, which we don't know, and I don't think we ever will.
quote:However, in records of the Roman Republic, there aren't too many ridiculous tales, and we can, today, use the Republican form of government and see that it exists and has its benefits
I'm sure you will disagree with me, but I don't understand why people object so much to rediculous tales. In most religions, a God is all-powerful. If he's all-powerful, what's keeping him from doing fantastic things? My faith is more based on the heart while yours is on science. I can just look around the world and at people and society and know that my religion is true. And who says Christianity, or any other religion, doesn't have its benefits?
I'm not putting the new over the old, I'm using what we can know over what we don't.
We know that we have minds. We can act accordingly.
We do not know that a bunch of books written in the Middle East are God's chosen form of communication. And the problem with their antiquity is that there is absolutely no way to determine the truth of them.
However, in records of the Roman Republic, there aren't too many ridiculous tales, and we can, today, use the Republican form of government and see that it exists and has its benefits.
Comrade Smurf, what you are describing makes no sense. Following GOD'S 'old dogmas' and 'old books' is the highest treason? Your reasoning that it is your sole duty to explore the mind God gave you, has nothing to do with Christianity, or Judaism and Islam. You're taking one aspect of a religion out of context and then using it however you want. Just because God gave us all our minds doesn't mean that believing 'old books' isn't what he wants us to do. Oh no, Ancient Rome used the Republic, it must be wrong for us to use it in the current age. What we are now is a product of our past. The 'old books' form the foundation for our faith today, what is wrong with that?
hi. im a wiccan and i believe in goddess. Someday, when i die i know i will be going some where. I have something to look forward to.. But I was just wondering, how are you all feeling? that you believe in a diety who admits, in a book said to be the word of him, his holy book, to killing at least one million people? ..that there's nothing to look forward to in death because everything you believe is wrong (or it could be that there's nothing to look forward to in death because your dead, ****ing idiot)?..how does it feel?
For today's fun exercise, let us assume that there is a God.
Let us assume that I have a conciousness, a mind that is not just an illusion created by too many chemicals in my brain.
God gave me this mind.
Therefore, it is my sole duty to this god to explore this mind, to use this mind to ponder and explore the universe and this God itself.
Therefore, choosing not to think and instead to follow old dogmas and old books absolutely is the highest treason to my God.
Therefore, the dogmatic followers of Religion are the greatest blasphemers of all.
On a side note, the Dali Lama once told Carl Sagan that if science ever somehow disproved any tennant of Buddhism, he would agree with science. That is a lack of dogma. That is being openminded, but using the religious knowledge of the past to help explore and understand the universe.
Carl Sagan and the Dali Lama kick ***. Well, Carl Sagan did kick ***. Rest in what you thought you'd rest in, Carl.
God is like a cold, you can feel it. Hmm, nice comparison there, the problem is I don't have any 'feeling' of God existing. So that argument is null from my perspective.
'There is not really much you can PROVE, and if you say you don't believe unless there is "proof" . . . wow.'
Ok, I will phrase it differently: Historical events and scientific discoveries, I judge to be true or false by analysing the source of information and deciding whether I trust it. Yes it is hard to get absolute proof of anything, but there is a hell of a lot more assurance of, say, the occurrence of the Civil War than there is of the creation of the world in 7 days, or Adam and Eve, or of there being an all-seeing, all-knowing being that is somehow aware of my tiny existence.
I suppose all theories about the origins of our existence and the creation of the Universe are far-fetched in some way. Life is a bizarre thing. I am not trying to influence your beliefs, they are as good as any. I just feel I can trust science marginally more than religion.
I don't pretend to have the answers to anything. I guess the positive side of having no fixed belief is that I live in a universe of endless possibilities.
I told you to save that stuff to your hard drive!!
every argument I ever have is repeating what I've already said 15 times previous...some of these people need to invent some new material...it's getting pretty old(2,000 years old to be exact).
I really don’t want to repost everything I've said in previous posts, but I'll just say that this "argument" is full of anthropomorphizing and a misunderstanding of science. Go to Talkorgins.org it has an answer to just about everything that was brought up in this "argument."
As for calcoastsurfer
quote:No, I don't just mean the universe. I mean EVERYTHING. Texture, color, our senses, 3D, concepts, science, the WORLD. How do YOU explain it happeneing?
Must fields of science, such as physics have explained these and also again you're using terms that are very relative.
(material taken from "how can i know there is a God" by rbc ministries.)
God Revealed through Creation... NO one can deny that our universe is an astounding, majestic marvel.The mere contemplation of its vastness and grandeur causes our heads to spin.Yet how did it get here? Can it be, as so many scientist contend, that this all happened because of an enormous explosion?Or did it come about as a result of an infinite God?
We could speak of the intricate pattern of the movement of the the bodies in the universe- including the amazing, pinpoint timing of their courses in relation to one another. We could talk about the precise tilt of the earth, its exact distance from the sun, its accurate journey through our solar system-all prerequisites for the temperature climate we enjoy.
For the sake of brevity, lets examine only one tiny, vital part of our existence-the eye. Lets see how its complexity implies the involvement of an intelligent designer and defies the idea of random development.
According to the most people who dont believe in God, we have achieved our present physical condition on the basis of evolution. They tell us that what started as a single-celled something-or-other a few hundred million years ago has finally worked its way to humanhood. But lets consider this small organ of the body and see if it could have logically taken that evolutionary route. If it didn't, then could we reasonably deduce that it came from the hands of a Grand Designer? Here's the case. If you were to take away any part of the eye- the retina, for example- the eye does not work. Or subtract just the lens. No sight. The cornea? Blindness. For the eye to function, all parts must be present and funtional. That in itself is a strong argument for design. But lets go in another directon. L ets take that concept back into the evolutionary chain. Somewhere along the way, a creature makig its way to humanity would have had to begin having an eye. But how did it start? The eye couldn't have evolved, because there was nothing that would have caused a creature to begin forming a sightless eye. Sincce the evolutionary theory say changes come about because of adaptation, what would have caused an eyeless thing to will a useless eye into its head?How would it know it would ever need an eye that could see? An eye can either see or it cant, and there is no reason for a creature to develop a partial eye just so it could become a seeing eye later. so where did the eye begin? Randomly or by design? The mind staggering intricacy of the eye and the interrelatedness of all necessary parts attest to a designer and creator who knew what he was doing.The bible claims that God is the source of it all. The writer of Hebrews made such an assertion when he said:
By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.(11:3)
That is an amazing statement. It claims that God spoke into existence the worlds of our universe-using nothing we can see for His raw materials. While that seems hard to believe, it makes great sense when compared with the alternative. If indeed the worlds were not made by God out of nothin, then the next-best solution is that the worlds were made by no one out of nothing. Compare the two ideas for reasonableness and see which conclusion you come to...
quote: First of he was not an atheists, he was a CREATIONIST and this had very little to do with the big bang and had more to do with evolution, this idea put forward by Howard Morowitz would hold true but what he fails to include is the basic principals of chemistry, so therefore its incomplete.
No, then we are thinking of different people. There were two of them and they WERE atheists, not creationists.
quote: What do you mean by "all of this" do you mean the universe?
No, I don't just mean the universe. I mean EVERYTHING. Texture, color, our senses, 3D, concepts, science, the WORLD. How do YOU explain it happeneing?
quote: Maybe I'm just the type that can't trust anything without proof.
Then do you trust that viruses exist? Have you ever peered through a microscope to see that? What about . . . the Civil War. You weren't around to see that. How can YOU prove it exists? History? The bible is history. Where it happened? It says where Jesus walked and where his crusifiction took place. What about a country? Have you ever been to . . . mm . . . Nigeria? Can you prove it exits? Sure there are pictures, but how do you know they are in Nigeria? Because people said so? There is not really much you can PROVE, and if you say you don't believe unless there is "proof" . . . wow.
quote: 'God exists' 'why' 'because I say so'.
This goes back to the whole proof thing. 'I have a cold.' 'How do you know?' 'because i can tell.' you never have PROOF when you have a cold, but you can feel it. get it?
quote: Two atheist scientists set out to prove that God did not exist and calculated the chances of the whole atome theory being true. It was somehting like 1 million to the 4oo billionth power. Needless to say that the two scientists are no longer atheists.
First of he was not an atheists, he was a CREATIONIST and this had very little to do with the big bang and had more to do with evolution, this idea put forward by Howard Morowitz would hold true but what he fails to include is the basic principals of chemistry, so therefore its incomplete.
quote: I'm not saying anything against atheists, I am just saying that I really do not see the POINT of the religion. Do you really think all of this just popped into existence?
What do you mean by "all of this" do you mean the universe? If you do mean the universe, that shows a lack of knowledge in general relativity and a lack of understanding of the big bang.
No. I expect there is life out there more intelligent than us. Crikey, there'd better be! I hardly put human beings on a pedestal. We mess up a lot.
'Do you think that there is no one up there that listens to the prayers of billions of people?'
I think it is very unlikely. How many prayers are answered?
I have wondered, even if people believe in God, this power that created the Universe… what makes them think He listens to any of us?
'Is everything by chance? Is everything coincidence?'
Hmm, debatable. Ask again later.
'When we die, we are just GONE? Done? This is it? The point of life? TO DIE!?!?!'
The point of life is to LIVE, my friend. What's so pointless about that?
I am an atheist because I refuse to believe any religion has all the answers. Call me an agnostic if you want. Maybe I'm just the type that can't trust anything without proof.
quote:Every single religion (except athiests) believe in GOD
I'm pretty sure Buddhism doesn't have a god... could a Buddhist verify that? Foxy? And let's not forget about agnosticism.
quote:I'm not saying anything against atheists, I am just saying that I really do not see the POINT of the religion. Do you really think all of this just popped into existence? Do you think humans are the highest life form? Do you think that there is no one up there that listens to the prayers of billions of people? Is everything by chance? Is everything coincidence? When we die, we are just GONE? Done? This is it? The point of life? TO DIE!?!?!
I don't know how the universe came to be, but I'll trust evolving scientific theory over stagnant dogma any day of the week. I don't think humans are higher or lower than any other life forms, we're just different. I think that billions of people are blinded by the false hope of religion, when it comes to praying for change. Everything might be chance and coincidence... if it is, so what? That doesn't diminish the worth of life. I don't know what happens after death, and I'm not really worried about it... I'll find out when I get there. I don't really think life has any set meaning; it just is. If you don't think life has a meaning, give it one.
First of all, saying you believe in God doesn't make you a Chrisitian. Every single religion (except athiests) believe in GOD, its just Catholics and Christians believe in Jesus Christ, ect. ect. Atheists believe that the universe just *pop* happened because atoms brushed together. (Atoms are the basis of living organisms) Two atheist scientists set out to prove that God did not exist and calculated the chances of the whole atome theory being true. It was somehting like 1 million to the 4oo billionth power. Needless to say that the two scientists are no longer atheists. I'm not saying anything against atheists, I am just saying that I really do not see the POINT of the religion. Do you really think all of this just popped into existence? Do you think humans are the highest life form? Do you think that there is no one up there that listens to the prayers of billions of people? Is everything by chance? Is everything coincidence? When we die, we are just GONE? Done? This is it? The point of life? TO DIE!?!?! I'm just full of questions about what it is like to be an atheist.
i'm an atheist and the question of death just doesn't bother me. we're all going to die so i think, "what's the big deal?" i feel like my life is good and i enjoy it most of the time, but i think one life is quite enough for me. when i die, i think i will cease to exist and that is a-ok with me. i just have to take full advantage of this life.
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