Speed, what do you think about recent developments with Israel pulling out of Gaza only to be shot at again?

I never said only casualty's in bagdad.
why did you asume that?
the figure of 202 dead comes from the Iraqi hospitals that have dealt with the chunks of charred meat that are the only thing left of many of the body's.

The massive civilian killings didn't start as soon as bagdad was captured, they started under a year ago if I recall correctly.

well you can't trust the numbers put out by the Govt, you can trust the numbers put out by the UN, and you can't trust the numbers put out by the military because they are all pretty much random guesses meant to make the military look good, or in the case of the Civvie death count, the US look bad. They are a political tool and not much else.

Basic Body count Math: 3 Confirmed + 1 Probable + 6 Pigs/Random Farm Animals = 35 KIA

Also basic logic makes the numbers of a 3000 a month seem unlikely. If 3000 citizens in baghbad are being killed monthly and people are levaing the city to get the hell out of the way of the various bombings and fire fights wouldn't baghgad be just about deserted by now? For the sake of the argument let's say we've had Baghdad occupied for 3 years (that's just about right) so 12 months in a year that means that 108,000 civilians have been killed in baghdad alone from the start of the occupation of the city. then factor in people leaving, call it 5000 a month and there is no city of baghdad left on the civvie side of the coin. it's just a crap load of soldiers and marines trading pot shots with a metric ass ton of insurgents

amp, where do you suggest we get the numbers from?

there are two types of lies, statistics and body count numbers

esecially if the UN is putting out the numbers

*EDIT*

The total body count of the massive civilian killing in Bagdad has reached 202.

UN estimates that civilian deaths total up to 3000 a month minimum

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Speed however makes his judgments and decisions based on the "hate America" rage across Europe. *He has admitted to this when speaking of how liberal the media in Europe is*

so far you have taken things out of context, purposefully misinterpreted my statements, etc... but this is the first time you have factually lied.

There is no Hate America Rage burning all across Europe.
You further prove how you conform to the militarist view of global affairs.

I do not hate The United States of America, I hate it's current policy and political establishment, without making any distinction between Republicans and Democrats. Both of the party's are equally bad.

It is noteworthy to point out that the term America generally refers to North, South, and Central America as a whole, you have no right to appropriate it when nominally referring to one country. While I doubt you do this consciously, it further confirms your latent nationalism.

European media isn't biased, European media shows the fucking dead body's that are a result of our foreign policy.
I'm getting sick of repeating this to you and everyone that continues to believe in our benevolence. Our foreign policy as a whole, dating back to interventionism in Latin America in the late 60's, and up untill today, is aimed EXCLUSIVELY at providing economic benefit.
We have never given a f*ck about Iraq's Freedom, we don't give a f*ck about Israels wellbeing, and we didn't give a f*ck about Vietnamese civilians wich we claimed we wanted to liberate from the mostrous comunist oppression that intended to take over the country(Note that civilian well being was only one of the tons of motivations for the vietnam campaign)
The ONLY thing that American foreign policy accounts for is for our economic well being, and as long as we are victims of a media more worried about making story's entertaining than truthfull you and most of the conformist american population will continue to believe in all the lies you are fed.

I'm not questioning single points, I'm questioning American policy as a whole.
Why do you think Israel has our support? solidarity with the Jewish nation? No. Israel has our support because Conservative Jewish Lobby's control enough american money to have significant influence on decisions on the matter. That, and Israel provides strategic balance to the mid east, wich would otherwise be completely controled by Arab nations, wich wouldn't respond to US interests.

Do you know how many people died today in Bagdad? the body count is up to 168 right this instant, a with 250 wounded wich will likely increase that number in the coming hours. Today more people have died in coordinated attacks than ever before since the occupation started. The country could now be factually considered inmersed in a form of sectarian civil war, with our troops in the middle. Do I need to post more pictures of dismembered body's?

You need to get back in touch with reality.

EDIT: your association of liberal media with hate against the United States and bias further proves your conservativenes.

Exactly, so I am not biased. Thank you. I do not make my decisions or points of view on the sole happenstance that I am in the military. Speed however makes his judgments and decisions based on the "hate America" rage across Europe. *He has admitted to this when speaking of how liberal the media in Europe is*

from wikipedia.com


A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a preference to one particular point of view or ideological perspective. However, one is generally only said to be biased if one's powers of judgment are influenced by the biases one holds, to the extent that one's views could not be taken as being neutral or objective, but instead as subjective. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or deny the truth of a claim, not on the basis of the strength of the arguments in support of the claim themselves, but because of the extent of the claim's correspondence with one's own preconceived ideas. This is called confirmation bias.

In practice, accusations of bias often result from unacknowledged favouritism on the part of a critic or judge, or indeed any person in a position requiring the careful and disinterested exercise of arbitration or assessment. Any tendency to favour a certain set of values naturally leads to an uneven dispensation of judgment. It may also be noted that, if a person were to take their own preexisting view as a priori balanced without acknowledging their own personal inclinations, any person or organization that disagrees with their views is likely to be viewed as biased regardless of that person or organization's actual efforts at balance. It may be observed that bias is, in a sense, reflexive, unacknowledged or unrecognised bias potentially leading to its apprehension (with or without good reason) in others.

This is particularly common in discussion of news media outlets such as CNN, Fox News Channel, The New York Times, Al Jazeera, and so on. For example, Bill O'Reilly has made accusations of liberal bias against the staunchly conservative Globe and Mail; at the same time, critics of O'Reilly accuse him of a conservative bias. Control Room, a documentary film made in 2004, has examined the role of bias in the media, through an examination of the conflicting methods of reporting the events of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, in Western and Arabian news networks.

See again, this is where you make the mistake. What makes you think I have my belief set because of the military? I'm one of the more liberal people in the military in all reality. However you have made it clear that you hate America, that you will only be satisfied with complete Utopia which is utterly impossible.

having someone in the military tell me I'm biased makes me scratch my head.

Having someone like speed tell me that anything is biased really has to make you scratch your head. See where you go wrong is that you think that your way is the only right way. Which will provide you with a painful adult life, I promise. I'm willing to listen to better ideas that are reasonable. Utopia is not reasonable.

quote:

I think it relates because speed and hydrok were arguing about I don't know what I can't remember and hydrok told speed that he was obviously biased coming from europe and then speed pointed out that the media in this country is extremely biased. or something like that. like that the news you get here about what's going on in israel would be different than what you'd see in certain countries in europe.

Precisely
War Made Easy by Norman Solomon - makes a great point on this issue

quote:

however you can not deny that drugs have ruined plenty of lives, families and careers.

Yes I can, drugs do not ruin lives, people ruin lives acting irresponsibly with drugs.
To give an example I state something I'm not very proud of, where do you think I got my noisename from? If you feel in the need of knowing why my personal experience backs this view feel free to ask me, I don't think this is the right thread to talk about drug issues, so I'm discontinuing my involvement in this particular discussion.

back on topic please.


It would be of Israel's interest to make some serious changes to their military policy, as of now they are completely isolated from the international community, and their economy is allready starting to resent the continued strain it suffers because of this isolation, and the obviously huge military expenditure it has to support.
The aggresive policy they have followed to date has allready been proven a failure.
Hydrok will inevitably say that Israel has started to make concesions toward the creation of a Palestinian state, this is a half truth. Israel has started to abandon some colonized areas, but construction of the wall continues, and the military still attacks palestinian settlements on a daily basis. Me pointing out the evidence of bias in the US media was meant to serve the purpose of putting this situation into perspective. On the american news, your much more likely to hear about Israeli concesions to Palestinians, than about the shelling of a settlement that killed almost 20 people 2 weeks ago.

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however you can not deny that drugs have ruined plenty of lives, families and careers.

Been there seen that, but I also know that having it illegal doesn't solve anything. Then again you're right on saying that having it legal solves nothing too.

But that brings me back to when I agreed with speed. Its the people that are the problem not the drug.

I'm not doubting the reason they are illegal, however you can not deny that drugs have ruined plenty of lives, families and careers. Same as alcohol has, I'm not standing behind a ban on alcohol or anything, but it's not like there is any great loss in having drugs being illegal.

Actually, I was just pointing out that many of us break the law every day. Technically. Anyways, Maya already explained how laws are not always right. The government really has no place trying to save people from themselves. Since we can't exactly tax things like marijuana, it's illegal.

I like to think of speed limits as guidelines, and by the way, if your asking meg about driving over the speed limit, I can assure you she does not drive over the speed limit, unless it is for safety reasons.

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That means, that when you use these illegal drugs, you are knowingly breaking the law.

Going over the speed limit is illegal. But who doesn't do that?

Thats why your a bunch of extremists, and that is why I am through arguing with people who can make Kat and Blue look like Neo-Cons.

quote:

Originally posted by Meagan87:
*still fails to see how the whole media issue relates to the topic of the thread*

I think it relates because speed and hydrok were arguing about I don't know what I can't remember and hydrok told speed that he was obviously biased coming from europe and then speed pointed out that the media in this country is extremely biased. or something like that. like that the news you get here about what's going on in israel would be different than what you'd see in certain countries in europe. don't quote me on this though because I'm not completely sure.

quote:

*does not feel the need to defend her morals on this site*
That being said...use of illegal drugs is ILLEGAL. That means, that when you use these illegal drugs, you are knowingly breaking the law. I'm fairly certain that most people would agree that breaking the law does not equal "conformity to the rules of right conduct" (the definition of morality found on dictionary.com).

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. Morality does not equal following the law. The law can be wrong. I'd suggest you don't use the law to determine if something is right or wrong. Years ago it was LEGAL to own people/slaves, just because it was legal does not mean it was morally correct, far from it. I think the idea of morality is extremely relative to each person.