Israel is getting full of Palestinians. Moreover, they are going to be the majority in many Israeli towns. It may seem a bit like telling you that water is wet, but the demographic changes will radically influence the situation in the Middle East. And as Arafat said in several speeches – Palestinians would peacefully take over Israel through breeding. In addition, Arab population is much younger and prolific, whereas many Jewish immigrants are long out of childbearing age (http://samsonblinded.org/blog/?p=106). So, isn’t it a time for Jews to think about this problem rather than lead war actions in the neighboring states?!

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actually, the Romans destroyed the Britains all the way up to Scotland. That is why they built Hadrians wall, and they were in Britain and built cities in britania for several hundred years before their downfall.

destroy is not the best word to use, and Britons isnt either, what existed then was tribal and at best slightly administrative, the Romans founded many great towns which remain today (Bath, York etc), nobody here resents the Romans, it is ancient history...we would never cite their defeat with pride, we have much more to be proud of than the chariot of Boudica.

Although, the chances of me having entirely Anglo-Saxon blood is tiny, Britain is a nation of immigrants and i probably owe my existence to past or more recent immigrations...things change, people emmigrate and immigrate, today this land is under a political entity, England - the UK, whatever level we are multicultural and my indian and black friends are every inch as British as i am...the world must learn that ethnic homelands are sources of division, and what is a larger source of division is pursuing that ethnic homeland at the expense of people who have called the land home for centuries.

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The British got it when the League of Nations split up the Ottoman Empire in 1920 and it was formed into the nation of Israel in 1948. 28 years

.......sorry, my bad. third grade math here I come.

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Why do you insist on keeping this going? No, I don't study Roman history specifically. I read a lot.

just curious....personally, I like discussing and learning about Roman history, it has nothing to do with the argument.

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we in britain burned the romans, expelled them from the land..but it has no relevance for today.

actually, the Romans destroyed the Britains all the way up to Scotland. That is why they built Hadrians wall, and they were in Britain and built cities in britania for several hundred years before their downfall.

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Fifty years? The British got it when the League of Nations split up the Ottoman Empire in 1920 and it was formed into the nation of Israel in 1948. 28 years. Now, I would compare Palestine under control of the British to Iraq or Afghanistan under control of the Americans, albeit on a longer time scale. The British controlled Palestine in order to give it time to form a stable, independent government. The same happened in Afghanistan and is ostensibly happening in Iraq. The United States does not own Iraq. Of course, we don't really control it, either, but that's a different matter.

exactly, we never annexed that land.

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Why do you insist on keeping this going? No, I don't study Roman history specifically. I read a lot.

i dont understand either! we in britain burned the romans, expelled them from the land..but it has no relevance for today.

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still, saying for about 50 years is still a long time; long enough for it be viewed as British land up until they left it.

Fifty years? The British got it when the League of Nations split up the Ottoman Empire in 1920 and it was formed into the nation of Israel in 1948. 28 years. Now, I would compare Palestine under control of the British to Iraq or Afghanistan under control of the Americans, albeit on a longer time scale. The British controlled Palestine in order to give it time to form a stable, independent government. The same happened in Afghanistan and is ostensibly happening in Iraq. The United States does not own Iraq. Of course, we don't really control it, either, but that's a different matter.

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They scattered the jews as to avoid ANOTHER revolt. Since the second was so bloody and destructive. Think Iraq but like 150 X worse: open rebellion, daily burnings, hourly kidnappings and executions, etc. It was a horrible thing. No agression intended, do you study Roman history?

Why do you insist on keeping this going? No, I don't study Roman history specifically. I read a lot.

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Palestine, on the other hand, was never meant to be a colony.

still, saying for about 50 years is still a long time; long enough for it be viewed as British land up until they left it.

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That's my point. The Romans--self-proclaimed rulers of the known world--would have found it incredibly embarrassing to have to bring in that many troops to put down a rebellion. I'm not trying to demean the Jews. I'm providing an explanation as to why the Romans forced the Jews out of Israel and why it was not under Jewish control for such a long period of time. But that's an unnecessary part of the argument because we've already established that it's irrelevant.

They scattered the jews as to avoid ANOTHER revolt. Since the second was so bloody and destructive. Think Iraq but like 150 X worse: open rebellion, daily burnings, hourly kidnappings and executions, etc. It was a horrible thing. No agression intended, do you study Roman history?

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That is nto just a "few extra troops," its even larger than a typical Roman invasion force.

That's my point. The Romans--self-proclaimed rulers of the known world--would have found it incredibly embarrassing to have to bring in that many troops to put down a rebellion. I'm not trying to demean the Jews. I'm providing an explanation as to why the Romans forced the Jews out of Israel and why it was not under Jewish control for such a long period of time. But that's an unnecessary part of the argument because we've already established that it's irrelevant.

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Then perhaps India was too no? It was British land ever since the end of WW1, thats a lot longer than just a mandate.

India was a British colony. British citizens actually lived in India. Palestine, on the other hand, was never meant to be a colony. The only British who moved there were Zionist Jews. And they stayed even after the British left. India had to free itself. The British weren't planning on leaving, at least not for a while. So, Palestine was a mandate, whereas India was a colony. Big difference.

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Even so, I doubt the Romans considered the Jews a worthy opponent. They were rather arrogant, having ruled the majority of the known world for a long period of time. Having to bring in extra troops to put down a rebellion by what they probably saw as a bunch of religious fanatics must have been humiliating. Anyways, this is not the point of the thread, as interesting as it is.

the roman legions were 5000 men per each legion. and auxilaries were about 6000 per auxilary legion. It totals to about 200,000 extra troops to suppress a rebellion. That is nto just a "few extra troops," its even larger than a typical Roman invasion force.

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The only way the Jews are leaving now is if they're beaten militarily. And judging from how Israel has fought in the past, I doubt that will happen any time soon.

Now with Olmert in office.

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What risk is saying is that Palestine was merely a mandate, never actually part of the British Empire. Mandates were quasi-colonial states, but they were generally intended to become independent at some point. They were controlled by some other country (in this case Britain), but not actually owned

Then perhaps India was too no? It was British land ever since the end of WW1, thats a lot longer than just a mandate.

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as I recall, Hadrian had to bring in 20 legions...not to mention the auxilaries.

Even so, I doubt the Romans considered the Jews a worthy opponent. They were rather arrogant, having ruled the majority of the known world for a long period of time. Having to bring in extra troops to put down a rebellion by what they probably saw as a bunch of religious fanatics must have been humiliating. Anyways, this is not the point of the thread, as interesting as it is.

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My argument is that the Palestinians and the other arab nations declared war on Israel and were beaten fairly, without allies even. So, since Palestine declared war first, and lost, it has established the Jewish state permanetly in my opinion.

Fair enough. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that Israel belongs to the Jews permanently. The only way the Jews are leaving now is if they're beaten militarily. And judging from how Israel has fought in the past, I doubt that will happen any time soon.

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After the ottomon empire it was British land

What risk is saying is that Palestine was merely a mandate, never actually part of the British Empire. Mandates were quasi-colonial states, but they were generally intended to become independent at some point. They were controlled by some other country (in this case Britain), but not actually owned.

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the land was never british, we never had any intention to stay there and in the end we wished for palestinian self-autonomy, thats when zionist terrorism began.

........what are you talking about? After the ottomon empire it was British land.....did you suffer a head wound when you were little?

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The UN partition was violated by the Israelis who occupied more land than they should, then forcibly pushed the arabs out in violent acts such as Dayr yasin in order to occupy and annex jerusalem.

Answer me this, did Israel declare war on five (?) countries at once? No, five arab countries declared war on israel. why? because they were Jews and a jewish state was unbearable to the Arabs.....I can direct you to a very good history teacher if you'd like.

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The six-day was was again pre-meditated and struck against egypt and syria who had not attacked israel, they then occupied the west bank and gaza.

When you bring your tanks right next to the border and have intercepted communications about getting ready to attack, you don't sit on your butt. Military 101, another class you should take.

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I would like to talk about the rockets, as long as Israeli aggression continues so will the rockets, i personely know a Palestinian teenager whose girlfriends family was slaughtered by jewish soldiers, for no reason except intimidation....the rockts come as a response to acts such as these, which appears to be a perpetual cycle of violence.

I personally know israelis that have just been attacked in the Golan heights. and If you knew a THING about the Israeli military, they DON'T target civilians. If your story was really true, it'd be on somewhere else besides an online forum. Thank you.

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I think what we're arguing over more is the idea that Israel was not always controlled by the Jews.

that is what i was arguing yes.

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I'm sorry you got that impression, that is not how I justify the Israelis being in Israel. Technically, the land was british before palestinian. My argument is that the Palestinians and the other arab nations declared war on Israel and were beaten fairly, without allies even. So, since Palestine declared war first, and lost, it has established the Jewish state permanetly in my opinion.

the land was never british, we never had any intention to stay there and in the end we wished for palestinian self-autonomy, thats when zionist terrorism began.

The UN partition was violated by the Israelis who occupied more land than they should, then forcibly pushed the arabs out in violent acts such as Dayr yasin in order to occupy and annex jerusalem.

The six-day was was again pre-meditated and struck against egypt and syria who had not attacked israel, they then occupied the west bank and gaza.


I would like to talk about the rockets, as long as Israeli aggression continues so will the rockets, i personely know a Palestinian teenager whose girlfriends family was slaughtered by jewish soldiers, for no reason except intimidation....the rockts come as a response to acts such as these, which appears to be a perpetual cycle of violence.

First off, I'd like to correct myself. Jews have been there since 1500 BC.

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I think what we're arguing over more is the idea that Israel was not always controlled by the Jews.

I can't argue that.

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They had to keep a very low profile in order to not be exterminated by the Romans, who were understandably pissed off at almost getting beaten by the Jews. But even then, there were still Jews in Israel.

as I recall, Hadrian had to bring in 20 legions...not to mention the auxilaries.

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But I suppose your argument, Phantom, centers around the idea that the Jews were there first. But even this is false, because the Jews kicked someone out before they took control. Remember the Canaanites? Technically, the Canaanites (and Philistines) were there first. So really, Israel belongs to them, if possession relies on who had it first.

I'm sorry you got that impression, that is not how I justify the Israelis being in Israel. Technically, the land was british before palestinian. My argument is that the Palestinians and the other arab nations declared war on Israel and were beaten fairly, without allies even. So, since Palestine declared war first, and lost, it has established the Jewish state permanetly in my opinion.

The Jews have always been in Israel? I doubt that. You're omitting the people who lived in Israel before there even was a religion called Judaism.

Besides, very few Jews lived in Israel after the Diaspora. They had to keep a very low profile in order to not be exterminated by the Romans, who were understandably pissed off at almost getting beaten by the Jews. But even then, there were still Jews in Israel. So it's hard to argue against your statement that Jews have always (or almost always) been in Israel because it's true. I think what we're arguing over more is the idea that Israel was not always controlled by the Jews.

And it's clear that Israel has not always been controlled by the Jews. Assyria, Babylon, Rome, Greece, the Ottomans, and many more have had control over Israel at some time or another. In fact, I would say that non-Jews have ruled Israel more than the Jews have.

But I suppose your argument, Phantom, centers around the idea that the Jews were there first. But even this is false, because the Jews kicked someone out before they took control. Remember the Canaanites? Technically, the Canaanites (and Philistines) were there first. So really, Israel belongs to them, if possession relies on who had it first.

Of course, I could have completely misinterpreted your position, in which case I implore you to clarify. But I think I've got most of the points down.

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i will repeat myslf, jewish rule over tha lands of palestine lasted 4 centuries, muslim rule alone lasted 12.

and I will give you a lesson in basic mathematics. 7000 years (70 centuries) in Israel is a heck of a lot longer than 1200 years (which is what 12 centuries is.) Your math sucks. period.

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no it is a result of fear, stemming from the true evil perpertrated at Dayr Yasin and various other Jewsih attempts to force evactuate the arabs.

Even though moslems told the palestinians to flee? when THEY started the war of independence? I love your logic.

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What the zionists did is dispicible, uprooting a people who lived in the lands in relative peace for hundreds of years, then carrying out terrorist atrocities in objection to british plans for palestinian self autonomy

Jews have been there for THOUSANDS. once again, check your math.... please. So they were never technically "uprooted" as jews were STILL there. Not to mention the British mandate for a Jewish and a Palestinian state which the Palestinians and other arabs violated. Israel has a right to exist, just as Turkey and England do. period.

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why then will israeli not allow palestinians to return to their homelands?

Ask the syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, and Jordanians. To this day, Palestinians are STILL kept in their refuge camps from when they ran away from the war. Is this not a violation on their behalf? Besides, Israel is a Jewish state and that would be like letting every illegal immigrant come back into the states. and Why not let Jews back into Iran or lebanon or Syria? They were massacred from there, they ran away, had their property taken, and suffered. So maybe they should have a right to return. Food for thought.

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No, Jews have been there since 5000 BC. Hence the kingdom of David and Solomon.

i will repeat myslf, jewish rule over tha lands of palestine lasted 4 centuries, muslim rule alone lasted 12.

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So the removal of the Palestinian people from Israel is the fault of their fellow Moslems.

no it is a result of fear, stemming from the true evil perpertrated at Dayr Yasin and various other Jewsih attempts to force evactuate the arabs.

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Then in that case, let's make Turkey illegal. Turkey came from the Byzantines, which were taken over by the Ottomans, etc, etc. From what I understand, you seem to believe that if a country expells former citizens and creates a new government, it is "illegal." So while we're at it, let's make ALL countries illegal.

the turks did not discriminate against any group of people, greeks were allowed to remain in istanbul after the conquest. And your logic is flawed, do you think the greeks would have legitimate right to invade turkey and re-establish the byzantine empire? no. What the zionists did is dispicible, uprooting a people who lived in the lands in relative peace for hundreds of years, then carrying out terrorist atrocities in objection to british plans for palestinian self autonomy.

The Zionists disrupted the status quo, the zionists used terrorism on the arabs decades before the palestininas resorted to terrorism, and who wouldnt? the palestinian cause is noble, and it is justified it terms of the methods used by the zionists themselves to attain the lands, breaking UN law and causing humanitarian disaster.

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All the arab nations told Palestine to evacuate its civilians into neighboring countries to avoid the war and to come back when the war was over. however, they did not expect Israel to win. So the removal of the Palestinian people from Israel is the fault of their fellow Moslems.

why then will israeli not allow palestinians to return to their homelands?

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jewish rule over the land totals 4 centuries, muslim rule 12 centuries.

No, Jews have been there since 5000 BC. Hence the kingdom of David and Solomon.

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the zionist jews were not descendents of original jews who entered palestine, but the descendents of converts.

if you know anything about Judaism know this, Jews are not the people that accept converts easily. Generally, the jews before the zionist movement lived in their own communities and were born Jewish and died Jewish. Thus, the zionist jews were still Jewish and the converted ratio was and is STILL low.

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the jews who entered palestine from egypt entered a land occupied by the filistines, who became the palestinians.

The Jews had lived in the land before, they moved to Egypt because of the famine. So they were just returning. And the filistines are not Palestinians. palestinians came from Jordan and ran into Israel when Jordan began massacering (sp?) palestinians were doing the same thing they are doing NOW in Israel.

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in 1918 8% of the population of palestine were jewish, the immigrants then carried out terrorist actions against the british and palestinians, following the UN partition the Jews have consistenly followed a course of forced emmigration, with up to a million palestinians having left by the six-day war and more afterwards.

I cannot argue that the Jewish terrorists are not true. However, does that justify the violence and hatred the palestinians show the Jews even in their children TV programs? I think not. And During the war of independence, All the arab nations told Palestine to evacuate its civilians into neighboring countries to avoid the war and to come back when the war was over. however, they did not expect Israel to win. So the removal of the Palestinian people from Israel is the fault of their fellow Moslems.

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sure, illegal and inhumane safeguards, israel is an illegal state.

Then in that case, let's make Turkey illegal. Turkey came from the Byzantines, which were taken over by the Ottomans, etc, etc. From what I understand, you seem to believe that if a country expells former citizens and creates a new government, it is "illegal." So while we're at it, let's make ALL countries illegal.

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As a Jew and a future IDF soldier (I have visited Israel), I have to disagree with that statement. Jews have ALWAYS been in Israel. Ever since 5000 BC during the Hebrew Kingdom of David and Solomon. Even after the second great revold during the Roman empires rule (about 200 AD), There was still a large population of jews left in the province. Eventually, Zionism began in the 1800s and Jews began coming back into Israel. The holocaust caused the Jews to arrive back in Israel in the last 50 years. So Jews have been in Israel much longer than Islamic Arabs have.

the jews who entered palestine from egypt entered a land occupied by the filistines, who became the palestinians.

jewish rule over the land totals 4 centuries, muslim rule 12 centuries.

the zionist jews were not descendents of original jews who entered palestine, but the descendents of converts.

in 1918 8% of the population of palestine were jewish, the immigrants then carried out terrorist actions against the british and palestinians, following the UN partition the Jews have consistenly followed a course of forced emmigration, with up to a million palestinians having left by the six-day war and more afterwards.

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You do know there are Israeli safeguards against that right? Besides, have you seen how many children Orthodox Jews have? I don't think they know of birth control lol.

sure, illegal and inhumane safeguards, israel is an illegal state.

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the reason there are more arabs is that it is their homeland for centuries, whereby most of the jews are there for 50 years or less

As a Jew and a future IDF soldier (I have visited Israel), I have to disagree with that statement. Jews have ALWAYS been in Israel. Ever since 5000 BC during the Hebrew Kingdom of David and Solomon. Even after the second great revold during the Roman empires rule (about 200 AD), There was still a large population of jews left in the province. Eventually, Zionism began in the 1800s and Jews began coming back into Israel. The holocaust caused the Jews to arrive back in Israel in the last 50 years. So Jews have been in Israel much longer than Islamic Arabs have.

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would be interesting though to see an arab population outnumber the jews by say 10/1

You do know there are Israeli safeguards against that right? Besides, have you seen how many children Orthodox Jews have? I don't think they know of birth control lol.