This was sent to me via e-mail, and it raises a very good series of points.

Discussion required.

quote:

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Can a devout Muslim be an American patriot and loyal citizen?

Theologically, no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

Scripturally, no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically, no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer
five times a day. Socially, no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically, no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically, no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Religiously, no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam--intolerance (Quran, 2:256)

Intellectually, no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles, and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically, no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression.

Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually, no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while

Allah is NEVER referred to as our heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Written by Dr. A. Shorrosh, a former Muslim who converted to Christianity!

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joeydauben@hotmail.com
http://www.joeydauben.com
AIM: joey75154

Actually Jihad means any serious undertaking. There could be a "Jihad on poverty", its not necessarily war.

Salaam

first off, i'm just responding to the original post, because i don't have time to read through the whole thing, so if i repeat anything, just deal.

Islam was created by Muhammad and was a combination of influences of Judaism and Christianity. It encourages tolerance of other religions, and the holy wars (jihad) were originally meant to be fought within oneself, not with other people. So, yes, it is possible for Muslims to be American, because if they live in America they're allowed to believe what they want.

I haven't read the Qur'an or anything, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace
~Cb526

Deism also involves believing that God created the universe but doesnt really care about the course of our lives and doesn't get involved.

"The internet lacks all the subtleties of conversation that keep fist fights from breaking out."
-www.brunching.com

Yeah, maybe I overreacted a wee bit, but mostly to your PC comments, and I was making a point with the extensive swearing.

Face it Joey, if a Muslim can't be an American then that also applies to followers of all monotheistic religions.

Salaam

BillyBarrio, are you against organized religion? I can't always detect sarcasm. If you are, then I think you might really enjoy deism.

Ya like quotes, here's few of em:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

Thomas Jefferson was a deist which means he only believed in God, not Jesus, and not the Holy Spirit (see quote above).

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." - Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

Holy crap, dude! I only asked gemini where she got the quote - I didn't tell her to dig up his grave.

Geez.

I've actually never read that quote - anywhere. So that's why I asked.


Comrade, you'll learn that arguing the merits of someone's opposing views lends more credibility than trying to damage the person's character by 3rd-grade name calling.

Joey

Jefferson has a million of these...look them up

quote:

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Gemini, where did that Jefferson quote come from?

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I even quoted a couple in some posts

Oh, so now you're sticking to the belief that Jefferson and all the other founding fathers were good christians?

Jefferson was a DEIST. That quote is fairly well documented, I've seen it in countless, often mainstream, sources.

Will you stop with your PC crap? I'm not telling you that you should confirm to some unwritten rules of politeness and rightness, you chicken-shut mother****ing whiteboy ******* ****er in the ****ing ****ery.

[This message was edited by YNLissa on May 28, 2003 at 06:13 AM.]

I've already contributed to this topic, and I will continue to stand by what I post, say, state, believe (as I have said over and over and over again).

This e-mail is obviously not what you would call "politically correct," which is why all of you "sensitive" types are erupting.


Of course, looking over the previous posts on different subjects, you'll know that I do not respect PC, or do not support PC.

You people just like to try to "rile me up" or something, I dunno.

Gemini, where did that Jefferson quote come from? Besides a website...what text did it come from?

way to go ICM!!!

lets end all religions!!

Can a devout Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, or Methodist be an American patriot and loyal citizen?

Theologically, no. Because his allegiance is to God.

Scripturally, no. Because his allegiance is to the 10 commandments and the Bible.

Geographically, no. Because his allegience is to Rome and Jerusalem, to which he might travel once in his life.

Politically, no. Because he must submit to the Minister or Bishop, who teach people to hate Muslims (i.e. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson)

Religiously, no. Because no other religion is accepted by his god except Christianity--intolerance

Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government, with the exception of Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Jordan, is either dictatorial or autocratic Thanks to the US government.

Spiritually, no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," (at least since the 1950's when that religious reference was added) the Christian's God is loving and kind, while

Allah is NEVER referred to as our heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names (I've never heard a christian say "Dear Love" when they pray)... Despite the fact that Islam came from christianity and the fact that we both worship the same god regardless of what he's called.

Obviously, this Dr. A. Shorrosh needs to read his Quaran again! IF HE'S SUCH AN AUTHORITY ON ISLAM, THEN HOW CAN SUCH A RELIGON THAT TEACHES VIOLENCE AND HATE BE CALLED "ISLAM" WHICH IS THE ARABIC WORD FOR PEACE!
He seems to have been asimilated very well by the conservative christian community, which I might add, preaches intolerance.

It's a common known fact that Islam preaches peace, love, and tolerance.

"Set out for Jihad in the name of Allah and for the sake of Allah. Do not lay hands on the old verging on death, on women, children and babes. Do not steal anything from the booty and collect together all that falls to your lot in the battlefield and do good, for Allah loves the virtuous and the pious."

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"


"I have learnt that you laid hands on a woman who had hurled abuses on me, and, therefore, got her hand amputated. God has not sought vengeance even in the case of polytheism, which is a great crime. He has not permitted mutilation even with regard to manifest infidelity. Try to be considerate and sympathetic in your attitude towards others in future. Never mutilate, because it is a grave offence. God purified Islam and the Muslims from rashness and excessive wrath. You are well aware of the fact that those enemies fell into the hands of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who had been recklessly abusing him; who had turned him out of his home; and who fought against him, but he never permitted their mutilation."

JoeyDauben, you should really check out this link:

Islam questions and Answers

Dam mnit Joey you haven't responded! Aren't yah gonna defend your topic, your position?

Salaam

just cause of their religion and how it came about and a whole lot more reasons, dosent mean that a muslim cant be an american or patriotic. thats being just stupid. and being nationalist. later!

Wow Joey, you just got your a ss kicked. You might need X-Rays after our double beating. (Me and ComradeSmurf.) Please try and respond. I want to be amused.

Salaam

Joey gets stupid Church cartoons way too much, I've seen this before.

Allah may be based on a moon god, just like all other gods are based on older pagan beliefs. Allah done grown up to be a full blooded monotheistic god, just like Jehovah or "God"

Don't all the really stupid, fascist points made that e-mail apply equally to Christians?
Don't Christians have an allegiance to Allah?
Don't Catholics pay allegiance to the Pope and Vatican City?
Nothing says Muslims are required to hate Jews or Christians, it's just that fundamentalists LIKE YOU hate ALL other religious. There are plenty of moderate Muslims out there.

THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT BASED ON BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES. NONE OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS WERE GOOD CHRISTIANS. THOMAS JEFFERSON WAS A DEIST!
Anyway, many of the principles of the 3 major monotheisms (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) are basically the same! Do you complain about Hindus? Well ok, you probably do.

Oh guess what, hypocrite? Christianity doesn't accept other religions either! Remember the whole thou shall not have other gods before me? And you aren't exactly tolerant of Muslims, it seems.

If you knew anything, you would know Mohammed was a fairly laid back guy who respected his wife greatly.

This same issue has come up before.
Can the Irish be Americans? Catholics? Spainairds? Blacks? Chinese?

The answer would be 100% yes if it weren't for the likes of you. The whole concept of America is that it has been open to new immigrants and new ideas.

JAH LOVE!

[This message was edited by YNLissa on May 24, 2003 at 03:07 PM.]

quote:

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Salaam (Thats arabic, does that make me evil and un-american?)

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No, but anyone who is not a Christian is apparently "against" god, even if those religions follow god; so he might consider you evil

Maybe it can be said that a devout Muslim (Who follows EVERYTHING in the Qu'ran) couldn't be an American. But maybe then this devout Muslim couldn't be part of any country. And maybe all followers have to make compromises with their holy writ in order to get along w/ anyone. And maybe anyone who did the same w/ the Bible couldn't since much of what was printed in this letter is similarly done in the Bible. There are plenty or terrible quotes in the Bible (I bring not peace, but the sword) so taking a few comments out of context shouldn't be used to condem a religion and its followers. Remember, in the middle ages the Muslims were the civilized ones, the Turks accepted Jewish refugees that the Spanish had kicked out.

Salaam (Thats arabic, does that make me evil and un-american?)